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Subject: An Important Monster Issue That Is Going Ignored rss

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Lawrence Wheeler
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In updated #38 (Aug 21, 2017) of the Kickstarter, there was discussion by myself and many others concerning how the hunted monsters give off rewards based on their hit locations of A & K. One being for an artifact and the other for additional priests (I assume you gain the priest from the infamy of combat, not the priest coming out the monster's bum). This was a change made by Awaken Realms (AR) because they wanted to add an incentive or reward to players who engaged in combat with a monster without actually finishing the monster off - only to then have the monster be killed off by a near by bottom feeder player who would get a huge reward for little work.

I think everyone understood the problem they were fixing, however, the solution I offered was that of instead of making the A & K hit location rewards, hit location specific, instead make them % of hit point damage dealt. Example, at 50% hit point damage you get reward X and at 75% hit point damage you get reward Y with the actual kill being another reward. The issue I saw with AR's proposed reward system is that you could have players initiate a fight just to cheese off one or two hits of a monster, grab his goodies, and retreat from the fight. This would allow players to get valuable items (or priests) from a monster without attempting to win the fight. Furthermore, this would then render that monster "worthless" from the sense that it'd already had its loot stolen from it and who wants to waste turns going after a monster who has been robbed? The proposition from AR to the aforementioned hit locations is arguably worse than the original "killer takes all" system they had in place.

I've left comments in that Update #38 to no avail. I left a message in the public comments section. I've messaged them directly about this issue. Nothing.

This is an important issue that needs to be addressed and is going ignored. I'd like to ask everyone that is a backer on this game to copy and paste the following question into a KS message and send it to AR via private message. If you are feeling particularly energetic, paste it into the comments for Update #38 or the public comments as well. I just fear that this is going totally ignored and the game will be worse off for it.

Proposed copy / paste message. "Hi, I am a concerned backer for Lords of Hellas and was reviewing Update #38. I saw the game changes you made to the specific monster hit locations that would reward players for targeting certain hit locations, such as A or K. I also saw in the comments of that update that people were concerned this system could be abused by players seeking to "cheese" a few hits on a monster to get his rewards with no intention of killing it. I also saw in that same comment section of Update #38 certain people discussing the advantages of using a hit point % based system to allocate said rewards instead of a hit location system involving A & K. For example, at 50% hit point damage you get reward X and at 75% hit point damage you get reward Y with the actual monster kill being another reward. This seems more fair and balanced with less opportunity for abuse than just making easily accessible hit locations A & K give out rewards. Can you please give me any feedback on this issue or tell me if you are considering further changes to this aspect of the game? Thank you!"

If you get any responses off this, post them back here. I'd be interested to see if they continue ignoring this issue if they get lots of these messages sent their direction.
 
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Martín López
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I haven't reed the rules but I think the motivation of other player to keep attacking an already looted monster is win the game. Correct me If I'm wrong but if you kill three monster I think you win the game, so it's a great reward to attack a damaged monster, as long as the monster keeps his damage from the previous confrontation.
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Lawrence Wheeler
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Martin12005 wrote:
I haven't reed the rules but I think the motivation of other player to keep attacking an already looted monster is win the game. Correct me If I'm wrong but if you kill three monster I think you win the game, so it's a great reward to attack a damaged monster, as long as the monster keeps his damage from the previous confrontation.


My point is, it makes more sense to get partial awards while fighting a monster based on % of hit point damage dealt and not just targeting the hit locations of A and K. Using the hit location method, as I said, any player could run up and do two hit points of damage for example targeting both A & K and get several rewards then end the monster fight. That leaves a monster with almost full health (2 damage isn't much) and no partial rewards left.

Yes, you get a reward for killing the monster and killing 3 monsters is a win condition. However, that's besides the point of my post. I have a hard time believing you would disagree with the content of my post. I think its a pretty obvious problem with a reasonable solution.
 
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David Kline
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My understanding is you are correct, Martin. I haven't played the game, of course, but leaving a wounded monster for other players to swoop in and get closer to a victory condition is a poor strategy, IMHO.

Doesn't seem like "cheesing it" to me
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Joao Rodrigues
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I don't see a problem. Go ahead, grab the rewards and let me kill the monster. Do it 3 times and I win the game. Thanks for making it easy for me.
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David Kline
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There's also a "Local Glory Token" for defeating a monster as well, unless they changed that, which instantly gives you control of a region, forcing any enemy units out- which also can contribute to a Victory Condition.
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Lawrence Wheeler
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You all are missing the entire point of my post. This is a discussion about hit point % damage vs. A/K targeted attacks - for the purpose of distributing partial awards during the combat of a monster. That's it. And nothing any of you have said addresses that issue.
 
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Will Boothby
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Sure, go ahead and wound a few monsters and take their loot. I'll just kill steal them and win. Works for me.
 
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Becq
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Lawman5014 wrote:
My point is, it makes more sense to get partial awards while fighting a monster based on % of hit point damage dealt and not just targeting the hit locations of A and K. Using the hit location method, as I said, any player could run up and do two hit points of damage for example targeting both A & K and get several rewards then end the monster fight. That leaves a monster with almost full health (2 damage isn't much) and no partial rewards left.

Yes, you get a reward for killing the monster and killing 3 monsters is a win condition. However, that's besides the point of my post. I have a hard time believing you would disagree with the content of my post. I think its a pretty obvious problem with a reasonable solution.

Are you basing this only on Update #38, or is there a new rules prototype out? I ask this, because based on Update #38, I disagree with the content of your post. In fact, it appears to me as though you are misreading the rules they posted. Here they are, for reference:
Quote:
Lets say you start the hunt, but you manage ONLY to deal 1 wound (Bow with "K") on it and the hunt ends. Normally you would get nothing - now, you will get one priest to your pool.

If you would deal wounds with "K" and "A" and the hunt ended - you can choose, you can either get priest or neutral artifact.

If you will kill monster and put all the wounds on him - you are choosing from all the rewards on his wounds + artifact connected with this monster + glory token + you are 1 monster closer to winning the game

So to summarize:
* a player who inflicts wounds on a monster but does not kill it will get at most ONE reward: either a priest OR a neutral artifact (and only if he hits the right wound box(es). Multiple wounds does NOT award multiple rewards (but might block future monster-hunters from getting those rewards)
* a player who kills a monster will get at least three rewards: the monster artifact, glory token, and credit for killing a monster toward the monster win condition. If the player inflicted any A/K wounds, then he will ALSO get a priest OR a neutral artifact, as appropriate.
* depending on how wounds are dealt by players, it's possible that Cerberus (the sample monster in Update #38) could drop all of the following: a priest, two neutral artifacts, his monster artifact, a glory token, and a kill credit. (For example, if three different players split the special wound boxes before the monster was finished off by the third, or even a fourth, player.)

Off hand, those rules seem pretty reasonable. It *might* be worth streamlining them a little, perhaps as follows:
"A player who inflicts at least two wounds on a monster in a single combat (whether or not he kills the monster) receives his choice of either a priest or a neutral artifact. A player who kills a monster receives the monster's artifact, a glory token, and credit toward the monster win condition (in addition to the reward for inflicting two or more wounds, as appropriate)."

That would remove the need for new iconography on the monster cards, and would ensure that a player got rewarded for participation even if he didn't hit specific wound boxes.
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stavros tsiakalos
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Lawman5014 wrote:
You all are missing the entire point of my post.


The point of your post is that you are asking people to spam AR because you feel strongly about an issue in a game you most likely haven't played. And while I commented on kickstarter myself when they announced the change (going in, dealing one wound, grabbing loot, retreating seems too tempting on an unwounded monster), I am willing to see the other side of the argument the others here are presenting.
What I am not willing to do is join a crusade and spam people.
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Joao Rodrigues
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Lawman5014 wrote:
You all are missing the entire point of my post. This is a discussion about hit point % damage vs. A/K targeted attacks - for the purpose of distributing partial awards during the combat of a monster. That's it. And nothing any of you have said addresses that issue.

I don't know... it seemed to me that your point was that in this way, people would have no incentive to go and kill a monster, and instead would just hit it in a certain points and "grab the loot". We are saying that there is indeed a great incentive to go and kill the monster instead of just hitting it to grab the loot.

Anyway, I can see a true problem on the fact that you didn't get a reply from the producers regarding your concern. this is actually a little sad. I just don't agree with the point you were trying to make about someone just hitting and running as being a better strategy, because for me, it doesn't look like a good strategy.
 
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Graham
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I did back this but I must have missed the pledge level that allowed you to dictate rules? Was it an add-on? There were a lot of them...
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James Buchanan
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I can die fighting. I imagine it's easier the second time around.
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It looks like the point of the post wasn't missed. You just don't like the answer. I don't think their suggestion is worse. I like it.

However, I don't mind a winner take all either. If you kill it, you can loot it.
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duck kwak
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I stand with AR on this, you still need the right cards to play to benefit from running away with loot and you will most likely take dmg to your hero if you go in with low str/combat cards and if you fail, you wouldn't be able to try again untill someone builds a monument piece wich could take several turns, these new rules will make the monster kills ending alot more viable as people who just dmg the monster for some easy loot will make it easier for people hunting monsters.

The players who would be able to ninja rewards without a great risk of taking dmg are the people building up their str to hunt monsters in the first place anyway, so yeah, doing 5 points of dmg and then someone else ninja killing the monster would mean the guy doing 5 points of dmg would probably fall behind to far to make any viable impact on the rest of the game, at least now you would get something out of it without losing alot of combat cards,hp and a turn.

That said i am sure that AR is playtesting every little change they make to the game/rules extensively so have some faith.
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Michał Misztal
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Well, I played the game with those rules. There was no problem with them; actually, it happened twice for one player to wound a monster and take a neutral artifact and/or priest, and me killing the monster next turn and taking it's base artifact, a glory token, and being much closer to win by "Monster slayer" condition. With percentage system, I would get even more (I hit Sphinx for 3 wounds of 5, and Minotaur for 4 of 5) - that, would be broken.
To be honest, killing a monster in one battle is VERY hard - I don't think I would be able to win those fights without monsters being wounded, even as I played Heracles with Strenght 4 and some blessings.

My actual point is, I saw no need to implement a %-based system. Current version doesn't seem to be broken in any way, but percentage system would be more complicated and probably making specialized monster-hunters even more stronger.
 
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Awaken Realms
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Just noticed that thread. Sorry for the delay in answering!

So - first of all, any change we make is play-tested a lot, so regarding the in-game balance you can be sure we will not introduce anything, that will break it ;)

For preparing a hunt there are 2 significant prices you gotta pay:
- Sacrificing your special action
- Getting an injury on your hero

First one is HUGE cost. Let's assume you have 2 temples - by building monument special action you get 2 priests and move the monsters around - here, you sacrifice your special action and get only 1 priest / artifact (which is not a bad deal if you do not have any Regions, but we will get to that later).

Secondly, after unsuccessful hunt you always get an injury - meaning, that even if you are there for only 1 wound and out, you will get at least 1 injury yourself.


Ok, now let's get into why we put that change:
- First of all, players were hesitant to start the hunt during first game. They are used to more classical territory control and hunting monsters seemed like something difficult - after introducing this change we can see them taking way more risk with that. It is not "all or nothing".

- One thing really cool in Lords of Hellas is that we eliminated to some extent losing player / kingmaking. Even if you get wiped out of the Board completely and have no troops - you will always have a really valid strategy - hunting monsters. If other players will ignore you and keep fighting territory fight - you can win and we have seen a lot of games like this.
This change help this type of loosing player without a territory to get a priest as priests are crucial in the game.


Anyway - thanks for feedback! Also - updated rules are up in the last update and you can see everything for yourself!


-Marcin
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Kharn The Betrayer
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Awaken Realms wrote:

Secondly, after unsuccessful hunt you always get an injury - meaning, that even if you are there for only 1 wound and out, you will get at least 1 injury yourself.


What? :O Can't find that on the rulebook. As I understood the rules, you can leave a hunt without beign injuried since you can, for example, draw your cards for your next hero attack phase and don't deal any wound to the monster, ending the hunt without any injury.
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