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Subject: "Liberalism is white supremacy" and other idiocy rss

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fightcitymayor
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http://reason.com/blog/2017/10/04/black-lives-matter-student...

Maybe the deplorables are right about BLM.

Reason wrote:
Black Lives Matter Students Shut Down the ACLU's Campus Free Speech Event Because 'Liberalism Is White Supremacy'

Students affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement crashed an event at the College of William & Mary, rushed the stage, and prevented the invited guest—the American Civil Liberties Union's Claire Gastañaga, a W & M alum—from speaking.

Ironically, Gastañaga had intended to speak on the subject, "Students and the First Amendment."

The disruption was livestreamed on BLM at W&M's Facebook page. Students took to the stage just a few moments after Gastañaga began her remarks. At first, she attempted to spin the demonstration as a welcome example of the kind of thing she had come to campus to discuss, commenting "Good, I like this," as they lined up and raised their signs. "I'm going to talk to you about knowing your rights, and protests and demonstrations, which this illustrates very well. Then I'm going to respond to questions from the moderators, and then questions from the audience."

It was the last remark she was able to make before protesters drowned her out with cries of, "ACLU, you protect Hitler, too." They also chanted, "the oppressed are not impressed," "shame, shame, shame, shame," (an ode to the Faith Militant's treatment of Cersei Lannister in Game of Thrones, though why anyone would want to be associated with the religious fanatics in that particular conflict is beyond me), "blood on your hands," "the revolution will not uphold the Constitution," and, uh, "liberalism is white supremacy."

This went on for nearly 20 minutes. Eventually, according to the campus's Flat Hat News, one of the college's co-organizers of the event handed a microphone to the protest's leader, who delivered a prepared statement. The disruption was apparently payback for the ACLU's principled First Amendment defense of the Charlottesville alt-right's civil liberties.

Organizers then canceled the event; some members of the audience approached the podium in an attempt to speak with Gastañaga, but the protesters would not permit it. They surrounded Gastañaga, raised their voices even louder, and drove everybody else away.




Summarized:
Reason wrote:
Absent a promise to identify the perpetrators and make sure this never happens again, the college's statement is meaningless. If officials are just going to stand by while students make it impossible to even have a conversation about free speech on campus, the matter is already settled: there is no free speech at William & Mary.

These students have clearly made up their minds about free speech: they don't want to share it with anyone else—especially Nazis, but also civil liberties lawyers who happen to be experts on the thing they are willfully misunderstanding: the First Amendment. Their ideological position is obviously incoherent—Liberalism is white supremacy? What?—and would not stand up to scrutiny, which is probably why they have decided to make open debate an impossibility on campus. They really shouldn't get away with this.
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Rachel Simmons
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Protests aren't a violation of free speech: they ARE free speech.
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fightcitymayor
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bowen wrote:
Protests aren't a violation of free speech: they ARE free speech.
Oh, please. You don't get to use your free speech to shut down other's free speech. Fuck that shit. Protest outside, write a letter to the editor, make a video on your own time, don't pull this childish bullshit at the event and then try to wrap yourself in the mantle of "free speech." Because it is ABUNDANTLY clear by now that BLM wants no part of actual "free speech."
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The same things that make the most magical of libertarians believe that the modern state, as a comcept, makes little sense make the real far left say things like what we see in the original post: Ultimately, it's a lack of understanding of why the trade offs of western democracies make any sense vs their principles.

I'm not exactly a fan of many implementation details of western democracies, and I think that pointing them out is a great idea. One can also go as far as to question most constitutional rights, in any constitution. But the basic separation of powers, law creators and a judiciary that tries to make sure they apply to everyone, is the one without which society falls apart. Complaining that the ACLU defends undesirables is ultimately saying that those we don't like don't deserve access to the law, and that's as problematic as the libertarian equivalents, where those that are not powerful end up having to sign away a different level of rights from the rich.

If we cannot explain this to young adults, our educational institutions are failing.
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Eric Tama
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BLM isn't a centrally organized group with a hierarchy. You cast aspersions on all of BLM for what these students did. White supremacy is structural in America. Black people protest racism, they get accused of being anti-American (NFL protests), that is how American racism is.
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Andre
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fightcitymayor wrote:
bowen wrote:
Protests aren't a violation of free speech: they ARE free speech.
Oh, please. You don't get to use your free speech to shut down other's free speech. Fuck that shit. Protest outside, write a letter to the editor, make a video on your own time, don't pull this childish bullshit at the event and then try to wrap yourself in the mantle of "free speech." Because it is ABUNDANTLY clear by now that BLM wants no part of actual "free speech."


Perhaps the fact that they don't want "free speech" (which is debatable), is a function of the fact that they did not have it, for a very long time.

I would admit that they went too far, if this was some sort of paid event, behind closed doors. If this was a function open to the public, I am not sure why you feel they did not have the right to make their statements, short of violence occurring?

Drowning out the voice of the moment, is a known, recognized, and well used tactic of protesters. And fully allowed by the First Amendment.
 
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Rachel Simmons
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fightcitymayor wrote:
bowen wrote:
Protests aren't a violation of free speech: they ARE free speech.
Oh, please. You don't get to use your free speech to shut down other's free speech. Fuck that shit. Protest outside, write a letter to the editor, make a video on your own time, don't pull this childish bullshit at the event and then try to wrap yourself in the mantle of "free speech." Because it is ABUNDANTLY clear by now that BLM wants no part of actual "free speech."


Protests are by their nature supposed to be inconvenient. To make a statement. That's the point. When blacks occupied lunch counters to protest segregation, it wasn't supposed to be convenient for the whites there. It made a point that protesting outside, writing a letter to the editor, making a video on their own time did not. And so it is here. A point was made that doing any of the things you describe would not have made.
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Grass roots movements can have cells of misguided people with more emotion than logic. All kinds of things bubble up from chaos, especially chaos fueled by passion.
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Rachel Simmons
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Incidentally, I have actively supported the ACLU for decades and will continue to do so.

But people have every right to disagree with the ACLU. And I understand why BLM would object to the ACLU's support for the Nazis right to protest in Charlottesville.

I mean, really: Nazis have the right to protest in Charlottesville but BLM doesn't have the right to protest at William & Mary? Is that the position that liberals are supposed to be defending?
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Josh
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Students behaving on emotion more than sense? SAY IT AIN'T SO!
 
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Rachel Simmons
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Shadrach wrote:
Students behaving on emotion more than sense? SAY IT AIN'T SO!


I think it was ENTIRELY sensible. You might disagree, but it was very far from an irrational or unconsidered act.
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Trey Chambers
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The ACLU is nothing if not consistent. However, I disagree that Nazi gatherings are protected speech because Nazism by nature advocates violence and advocating violence is not protected speech.
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Rachel Simmons
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Incidentally, I was a supporter of Bernie Sanders in 2016. One of his speeches was disrupted by BLM activists. I was surprised and a little disappointed at first: it wasn't clear to me what Bernie had done to deserve it. But on reflection, I realized that it was an effort to get the campaign to pay more attention to their issue. And it worked. He did. And I came around to concluding that they had done the right thing. It was a better campaign for it.
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bowen wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Students behaving on emotion more than sense? SAY IT AIN'T SO!


I think it was ENTIRELY sensible. You might disagree, but it was very far from an irrational or unconsidered act.


It was pretty irrational to rush the stage of someone who was there to provide an informational session and who already shown at least a superficial desire to engage their concerns.

Also 'liberalism is white supremecy' sounds like an infowars headline, and that is, one would hope, not the angle the students were going for.

Add those up and I say it makes a solid case for emotion overrunning reason pretty handily in the immediete sense.
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Rachel Simmons
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Shadrach wrote:
Add those up and I say it makes a solid case for emotion overrunning reason pretty handily in the immediete sense.


Protests. Are. About. Getting. Attention.

They also pretty much ALWAYS make people mad. If they don't make anybody mad, they probably aren't doing it right.
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Christopher Yaure
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There are activists who believe that when free speech is used to assert that certain members of society do not have a right to exist, or are not entitled to equal rights, those members are justified in fighting against that exercise of free speech. Not all such activists are BLM activists, nor do all BLM activists hold this position. Further, some of those who hold this position believe it is a sign of (liberal) white privilege to assert universal and unlimited free speech is a good thing.

Think of it this way. You are a member of a group. Another group asserts that members of your group are not entitled to constitutional rights such as free speech, freedom of assembly, equal protection under the law, or even life. Does civilized discourse really require you to give those who object to your very existence a place at the table to discuss the issue?

No one would (I assume) expect me to engage in rational debate with a person pointing a gun at me and saying I should die. How about if the speaker is telling others to get their guns because I should die - am I required to engage that speaker in civilized debate?
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Christopher Yaure
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Shadrach wrote:


It was pretty irrational to rush the stage of someone who was there to provide an informational session and who already shown at least a superficial desire to engage their concerns.

Also 'liberalism is white supremecy' sounds like an infowars headline, and that is, one would hope, not the angle the students were going for.

Add those up and I say it makes a solid case for emotion overrunning reason pretty handily in the immediete sense.


Coming to a different conclusion than you is not necessarily irrational or emotional.
 
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bowen wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Add those up and I say it makes a solid case for emotion overrunning reason pretty handily in the immediete sense.


Protests. Are. About. Getting. Attention.

They also pretty much ALWAYS make people mad. If they don't make anybody mad, they probably aren't doing it right.


Not all attention is good attention. I thought we learned this when we were like 12? What percentage of those whose attentiin this drew now have a less favorable opinion of these students, or worse BLM in generwl, like the OP suggests?

Violent protests are a powerful tool best reserved for a hostile audence or in direct response to a proximate stimulus. Absent these things they are easily viewed as acting out or causing mayhem.
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actuaryesquire wrote:
Shadrach wrote:


It was pretty irrational to rush the stage of someone who was there to provide an informational session and who already shown at least a superficial desire to engage their concerns.

Also 'liberalism is white supremecy' sounds like an infowars headline, and that is, one would hope, not the angle the students were going for.

Add those up and I say it makes a solid case for emotion overrunning reason pretty handily in the immediete sense.


Coming to a different conclusion than you is not necessarily irrational or emotional.


Not nessecarily, but specifically in this case, would you care to offer a reason based rebuttal or just snipe aimlessly?
 
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Yeah, I'm afraid that the BLM group that rushed that stage and shut down that speaker could find a hell of a lot of more deserving targets. The next time a conservative republican legislator is having a town hall meeting, go rush THAT stage - those are the people trying to oppress minorities, not the ACLU. All that this incident did is serve to further fracture the liberal community, when its focus should be on pushing back the conservative wave, starting with the 2018 elections.
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I don't know too much about the speaker except the organization she was with but from looking at her twitter account it seems shes a friend of the NAACP. Again I don't know that much about her personal views but doesn't seem like she's racist. The event seems poorly attended from the videos with possibly the protestors having more people.

I get that free speech is becoming a thing some people dislike when it comes to groups no one likes using it to be able to talk about their ideas or even when it just comes to plain ole conservatives but don't agree with the notion that 'Liberalism Is White Supremacy'. It's a bit of a narrow scope to say.
 
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hibikir wrote:
The same things that make the most magical of libertarians believe that the modern state, as a comcept, makes little sense make the real far left say things like what we see in the original post: Ultimately, it's a lack of understanding of why the trade offs of western democracies make any sense vs their principles.

I'm not exactly a fan of many implementation details of western democracies, and I think that pointing them out is a great idea. One can also go as far as to question most constitutional rights, in any constitution. But the basic separation of powers, law creators and a judiciary that tries to make sure they apply to everyone, is the one without which society falls apart. Complaining that the ACLU defends undesirables is ultimately saying that those we don't like don't deserve access to the law, and that's as problematic as the libertarian equivalents, where those that are not powerful end up having to sign away a different level of rights from the rich.

If we cannot explain this to young adults, our educational institutions are failing.
It's entertaining when someone basically agrees with you, but in doing so feels the need to slam your basic political orientation, so as not to appear too sympathetic.
 
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I'm surprised they were not asked to leave and then arrested since it was a closed paid event.

Why didn't that happen?

Regarding the incident, it was not an example of free speech.

Free speech involves communication. This was suppression of communication.

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fightcitymayor
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Eric_Tama wrote:
BLM isn't a centrally organized group with a hierarchy. You cast aspersions on all of BLM for what these students did.
Again... oh, please. When people who freely associate as BLM members hold BLM-endorsed signage at a BLM-endorsed protest which is livestreamed to a BLM account... guess what? If it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

And I see your problem: You are scared to call out these BLM fascists because you think that makes you a racist. Let me ease your mind: It does not. No matter what 90% of media outlets want you to believe.
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maxo-texas wrote:
I'm surprised they were not asked to leave and then arrested since it was a closed paid event.

Why didn't that happen?

Regarding the incident, it was not an example of free speech.

Free speech involves communication. This was suppression of communication.



I think it's because the event was so poorly attended, when you have like 10 people in the crowd and like 14 protestors might have just been easier to call it quits and say it's not worth it. I'm guessing that or maybe the interest wasn't so high that there was either no security or very little.
 
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