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Subject: Landscape tile placing mandatory? rss

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Andrea Bampi
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I played my first game yesterday, and I've found this game intriguing.
However, I can't seem to find a clear answer to this question, neither here nor on the manual.
The rulebook clearly states that whenever you are "instructed" to gain GOODS, you may freely choose to get LESS goods (even 0). Example: Feudal Lord, lower action, I get 1 clay but for some reason I prefer not to take any wood.
I can't find mention to a similar freedom of choice about landscape tiles.
Example: I play FOREST MANAGER and I'm the only one playing this specialist. When using the UPPER action, the one getting you a new grove tile AND 1 wood, may I choose to just take the wood without adding any grove tile to my board? I know that I'm always allowed to remove landscape tiles to make room for new ones, but let's suppose I don't want to (for some gigantic adjacency reason, for example). Am I allowed to refuse the new landscape tile (or to get it without placing it on my board)?

Edit: I wrote FOREST instead of GROVE (now corrected). Anyway, you understood my question cool
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alexander stark
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Good question you made. I overlooked this rule, I've played this game a lot of times and now I remember that there's a rule like this. To someone like me in the same situation, the rule is in page 12 in you want to check it:

"(P1) When gaining goods, you may take fewer goods than provided."

However I don't know if zero is "fewer goods", if it's allowed to choose that quantity. The same applies for the landscape tiles, if you have to gain at least one.
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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Since the appendix concerning these characters use "and" instead of "and/or" I would say it's not optional. However, you are allowed to remove landscape tiles at anytime, so there's nothing preventing you removing the same landscape tile and replacing it with the character. I understand if you have no more of that type, that approach would not be something you could do.

For example:

PIT WORKER
Place a Pit tile on an empty space of your Landscape board and move the Clay token on the Brickworks wheel 1 space forward.



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Murr Rockstroh
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alexandermagno wrote:
Good question you made. I overlooked this rule, I've played this game a lot of times and now I remember that there's a rule like this. To someone like me in the same situation, the rule is in page 12 in you want to check it:

"(P1) When gaining goods, you may take fewer goods than provided."

However I don't know if zero is "fewer goods", if it's allowed to choose that quantity. The same applies for the landscape tiles, if you have to gain at least one.
Zero is fewer than any positive number, so zero is allowed.
 
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Simon
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I can't see the answer on this, but supposing it wasn't optional, and that you had to receive a landscape tile, what would have to happen if your board was full? This would be a messy scenario rules-wise, so my guess is you can choose not to take the tile. Your board might be full and include landscape tiles - would you have to dispose of one to make space? Your board might be full of buildings and forests that you can't remove - could you then not play the card at all? Being forced to accommodate the tile seems at odds with the spirit of the rules generally, which allow you to forgo resources and to choose not to benefit from the ability on specialist cards, so my guess is the instant disposability of landscape tiles was taken as a reason not to deal with the issue of whether you can forgo them. The question is interesting though and had never occurred to me.
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-matt s.
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From the appendix, the rule for Pit Worker states:
Rulebook page 12, Appendix 1 wrote:
Place a Pit tile on an empty space of your Landscape board and move the Clay token on the Brickworks wheel 1 space forward.


The rules for the other Specialists are similar for landscapes.

To me, this is saying you place the landscape on an empty space. It DOESN'T say you must make an empty space. Therefore, if your board is full, it seems it isn't forcing you to remove something else.

(Also, if you have an empty space already, it doesn't hurt to place it since you can remove it again at any time)

I would definitely play that you aren't forced to place a landscape if you don't want to. This also seems to be more in the spirit of the game.
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Murr Rockstroh
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There isn't question of whether you can play the card or not or whether you're forced to play the landscape tile, because you can always play the card and you can also forgo using any of the abilities on a card you play. The question to me boils down to this.

If you play a card like the Pit Worker, on the top half of the card, can you decide to not take the clay pit tile and still get 1 clay?

My answer was "No" since there's not an "and/or" in the explanation (and if you know Uwe's rulebooks, you know he loves the phrase "and/or" and puts it in everywhere the option exists).

In the instance that you have no free space or can't/don't make free space, I'd say you can't get the 1 clay.

Hopefully the publisher will drop in and clear this one up. It's never really come up in our games that someone wanted to do this.
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-matt s.
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Ok I see your point...what you're saying is you have to create the pit to get the clay. Similar to the cards where if you can't cut down a forest you can't do the actions.

Although, if that was the case I'd think it might say 'If <landscape>, also <resource>'

The way it is I see it more that he's giving you two things and you're refusing one of them because you don't have the space.

Ah well, it's a fine point/edge case that probably doesn't come up much.

But, yes, an official confirmation would be good.
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Simon
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Murr wrote:
The question to me boils down to this.

If you play a card like the Pit Worker, on the top half of the card, can you decide to not take the clay pit tile and still get 1 clay?

My answer was "No" since there's not an "and/or" in the explanation (and if you know Uwe's rulebooks, you know he loves the phrase "and/or" and puts it in everywhere the option exists).


This puts it really clearly, thank you!

Whilst it is true there doesn't seem to be a ruling on this I still feel that you don't have to take the tile. The wording is "Place a Pit tile on an empty space of your Landscape board AND move the Clay token on the Brickworks wheel 1 space forward." (my capitals), not "AND THEN", so by the same logic you outline you would have to take the clay (which you don't have to take) to get the pit, which would be weird.

As the whole card is one big and/or, clarifying that the pit tile and the 1 clay are not tied together would mean highlighting one "and/or" (in the top ability) within another and/or, (the card's ability to do the top and/or the bottom ability), which would have been a bit turgid.


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Andrea Bampi
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tasajara wrote:
From the appendix, the rule for Pit Worker states:
Rulebook page 12, Appendix 1 wrote:
Place a Pit tile on an empty space of your Landscape board and move the Clay token on the Brickworks wheel 1 space forward.


The rules for the other Specialists are similar for landscapes.

To me, this is saying you place the landscape on an empty space. It DOESN'T say you must make an empty space. Therefore, if your board is full, it seems it isn't forcing you to remove something else.

(Also, if you have an empty space already, it doesn't hurt to place it since you can remove it again at any time)

I would definitely play that you aren't forced to place a landscape if you don't want to. This also seems to be more in the spirit of the game.


This is exactly my rule interpretation.
Anyway, thanks to all... I would appreciate an official clarification too, anyway cool
BTW: I didn't find myself in a similar borderline situation, but I was very close - I began very early to build up a big Pit combo and I removed all my Groves to do so. In a specific turn, I had the board full of forests, buildings, pits and 1 pond, and I "needed" it; and if I had chosen (I didn't) a Forest Manager in my 5-cards hand...
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Lucas Smith
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Rules, p. 8:
"You may remove Landscape tiles (i.e. Pits, Groves and Ponds)
from your Landscape board at any time during the game (but you
may not rearrange them)."

So if you have a free space you can take the landscape tile and immediately get rid of it again. (In other words, it is not mandatory to take and keep tile) From a strategic perspective, it's probably better to take the tile and keep it until you need the respective space, because the landscape might come in handy later.

So, the remaining question is whether you may play a card only for the other benefits if you do not have any free spaces. My answer would be yes, you can do that.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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smithlucas wrote:

So if you have a free space you can take the landscape tile and immediately get rid of it again. (In other words, it is not mandatory to take and keep tile) From a strategic perspective, it's probably better to take the tile and keep it until you need the respective space, because the landscape might come in handy later.


Hum. Well - this is something I really don't think it's allowed. There's no mention of a "landscape tile reserve" anywhere in the rulebook, and it's not allowed to "freely" place a landscape tile. So I'm pretty sure Uwe didn't mean to allow players to do something like that.
My interpretation is: you may take a landscape tile and immediately place it on a free space, or you don't take it at all.
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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RickNash wrote:
smithlucas wrote:

So if you have a free space you can take the landscape tile and immediately get rid of it again. (In other words, it is not mandatory to take and keep tile) From a strategic perspective, it's probably better to take the tile and keep it until you need the respective space, because the landscape might come in handy later.


Hum. Well - this is something I really don't think it's allowed. There's no mention of a "landscape tile reserve" anywhere in the rulebook, and it's not allowed to "freely" place a landscape tile. So I'm pretty sure Uwe didn't mean to allow players to do something like that.
My interpretation is: you may take a landscape tile and immediately place it on a free space, or you don't take it at all.
I think you misunderstood what was meant by "keep it until you need..." He meant place the tile, and leave it on your board until you no longer need it, not keep it off to the side in some reserve.
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Andrea Bampi
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Murr wrote:

I think you misunderstood what was meant by "keep it until you need..." He meant place the tile, and leave it on your board until you no longer need it, not keep it off to the side in some reserve.


Whoops! I think you're right. Sorry cool
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Lucas Smith
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Murr wrote:
RickNash wrote:
smithlucas wrote:

So if you have a free space you can take the landscape tile and immediately get rid of it again. (In other words, it is not mandatory to take and keep tile) From a strategic perspective, it's probably better to take the tile and keep it until you need the respective space, because the landscape might come in handy later.


Hum. Well - this is something I really don't think it's allowed. There's no mention of a "landscape tile reserve" anywhere in the rulebook, and it's not allowed to "freely" place a landscape tile. So I'm pretty sure Uwe didn't mean to allow players to do something like that.
My interpretation is: you may take a landscape tile and immediately place it on a free space, or you don't take it at all.
I think you misunderstood what was meant by "keep it until you need..." He meant place the tile, and leave it on your board until you no longer need it, not keep it off to the side in some reserve.

Murr got it right, that's what I meant.
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