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Subject: First game rules questions (game 1 spoilers - rule 6, 7, 15, 26 rss

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Goat Goatington
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Some questions after game one. Things that are in the rules already aren't marked spoilers.

Rule 15 - placing workers
Quote:
3. Benefit: You may gain all or part of the benefit.

I think the intention is clear but the wording isn't great here. The benefit of the grandstand is to put the influence marker cost on the objective card and score 5 points. Can I do it just to resolve the second benefit? The rule says only part so I'd like to resolve the 5 points for an influence please, don't place the objective marker. Similar for the Zepellin, Charterstone and other spoiler things that are similar. This might be a distinction between wording of rules and iconography.


Rule 7 - Advancement mat
You replenish the cards after buying a card. We had an empty advancement mat, then a player used the quota track to discard advancement cards. Should we replenish immediately? I think the intent is yes and we did, just checking this is right.

Rule 6 - Influence
Can you regain someone else's spent influence token? I'd think the answer is no (and that's how we played) because they're colour coded but the rules never specific your tokens.


Spoilers for things unlocked in game 1:

I don't think this is a spoiler but it's not known at the start. Rule 26:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I really don't like the fact that the information about what you get to carry over from game to game isn't known until you finish your first game. Near the end of the game we spent a while trying to decide what we might get to keep so we knew which actions might be worth doing when you can't score points immediately. Will another advisor help me? Should I rush my crates before I lose them?
I understand legacy games are a different experience but this is basic game information that's completely hidden for no real benefit. It's not like other unlocks that add new rules, cards, etc. and it's the first question all of us were asking near the end.
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David Studley
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Goateh wrote:
Some questions after game one. Things that are in the rules already aren't marked spoilers.

Rule 15 - placing workers
Quote:
3. Benefit: You may gain all or part of the benefit.

I think the intention is clear but the wording isn't great here. The benefit of the grandstand is to put the influence marker cost on the objective card and score 5 points. Can I do it just to resolve the second benefit? The rule says only part so I'd like to resolve the 5 points for an influence please, don't place the objective marker. Similar for the Zepellin, Charterstone and other spoiler things that are similar. This might be a distinction between wording of rules and iconography.


The Commons - rule 17 states "Grandstand: Place 1 influence token on an objective card you've completed to gain 5 VP." Treat this like a single benefit.

Goateh wrote:

Rule 7 - Advancement mat
You replenish the cards after buying a card. We had an empty advancement mat, then a player used the quota track to discard advancement cards. Should we replenish immediately? I think the intent is yes and we did, just checking this is right.


I'm not following this one, why do you have an empty mat? Also, when using the quota track, the player is discarding their own advancement cards, not those from the mat (sorry if I'm misinterpreting your question).

Goateh wrote:

Rule 6 - Influence
Can you regain someone else's spent influence token? I'd think the answer is no (and that's how we played) because they're colour coded but the rules never specific your tokens.

Correct, the answer is no. You only have access to influence tokens in your player color.

Goateh wrote:

Spoilers for things unlocked in game 1:

I don't think this is a spoiler but it's not known at the start. Rule 26:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I really don't like the fact that the information about what you get to carry over from game to game isn't known until you finish your first game. Near the end of the game we spent a while trying to decide what we might get to keep so we knew which actions might be worth doing when you can't score points immediately. Will another advisor help me? Should I rush my crates before I lose them?
I understand legacy games are a different experience but this is basic game information that's completely hidden for no real benefit. It's not like other unlocks that add new rules, cards, etc. and it's the first question all of us were asking near the end.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
You are permitted to keep everything following game 1, so the limitations you are describing, that you are made aware of at the end of game 1, don't impact you until the end of game 2.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Thanks David!
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Bastian Winkelhaus
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DJStudley wrote:


Goateh wrote:

Rule 7 - Advancement mat
You replenish the cards after buying a card. We had an empty advancement mat, then a player used the quota track to discard advancement cards. Should we replenish immediately? I think the intent is yes and we did, just checking this is right.


I'm not following this one, why do you have an empty mat? Also, when using the quota track, the player is discarding their own advancement cards, not those from the mat (sorry if I'm misinterpreting your question).


They probably had an empty mat because they bought all the assistant cards.
I think you did the right thing by replenishing as soon as you had cards to do so again.
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Goat Goatington
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As above, we'd simply bought all the cards from the advancement deck during the game. It isn't very big and one person had a card that gave a bonus for doing the action. The player using the quota track was the one with the most cards and they returned some of their own to the deck after it had already been emptied.

Rule 26:
DJStudley wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
You are permitted to keep everything following game 1, so the limitations you are describing, that you are made aware of at the end of game 1, don't impact you until the end of game 2.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
My complaint is that the game 1 limit isn't known at all, not that you don't know the game 2 limits. You're told you can keep everything when you're reading the post-game cards.

We'd actually worked out the limits from the player boxes as the likely limits but why couldn't the rules just say you'll keep everything after game 1 before or during the game? The other legacy games are very upfront about what is permanent and what isn't. Knowing what you can keep is part of assessing the value of actions and it's hidden here for no apparent reason.
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David Studley
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zlorfik wrote:
DJStudley wrote:

I'm not following this one, why do you have an empty mat? Also, when using the quota track, the player is discarding their own advancement cards, not those from the mat (sorry if I'm misinterpreting your question).


They probably had an empty mat because they bought all the assistant cards.
I think you did the right thing by replenishing as soon as you had cards to do so again.


Goateh wrote:
As above, we'd simply bought all the cards from the advancement deck during the game. It isn't very big and one person had a card that gave a bonus for doing the action. The player using the quota track was the one with the most cards and they returned some of their own to the deck after it had already been emptied.


Ah, I see. Thank you. Rule 7 says, "Whenever the deck is empty,... shuffle the discard pile into the deck." I agree that would include when an empty discard pile was no longer empty (because of newly discarded cards from the quota track).



 
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Goat Goatington
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I agree, you refill the deck instantly because of the whenever clause. You can't hit the condition to refill the board though because that happens when you buy a card and there are none to buy. Should refilling the board be whenever too?
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David Studley
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Goateh wrote:
I agree, you refill the deck instantly because of the whenever clause. You can't hit the condition to refill the board though because that happens when you buy a card and there are none to buy. Should refilling the board be whenever too?


Hi Goat,
My interpretation of 'Whenever the deck is empty...' is a perpetual state. As such, you are continually trying to resolve that state (imagine shuffling an empty discard pile into an empty deck). Once there are cards in the discard pile, you are able to resolve that state satisfactorily.

That said, I can see the benefit in having the rule do the exact opposite this early in the campaign, with such a small deck, and with one player focusing solely on churning those cards.

I'll look to Jamey for a final ruling on this one.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Goat: You asked why the game doesn't tell players before Game 1 that they will carry over stuff from Game 1 from Game 2, but the game does tell you this on card 16: "Players will carry over all components in their personal supply from Game 1 to Game 2" Card 16 is one of the cards you unlock at the very beginning of Game 1 (when you use the Charterstone for the first time).

As for the advancement mat, #5 of rule 7 in the Chronicle says, "Whenever the deck is empty or new cards are unlocked, shuffle the discard pile into the deck."
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Goat Goatington
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Apologies then, I must have missed the bit about keeping things. I can find card 16 but no idea what the sticker was, we must have missed the text. Card 14 appears to say this though

I'll try and give an example of what I mean with the advancement mat because I'm not explaining this very well. It's not a question of forming a new deck, it's how you get the new deck out onto the board to fill the spaces.


The starting state is a full board and a deck of cards. A player buys a card, Rule 7.2 says replace the bought card with a card from the deck.

Eventually we reach a point where the deck is empty. A player buys a card, they can't replace it so we now have an empty space. Players continue to buy cards until the board is completely empty.

A player now uses the quota track to return some advancement cards. Rule 7.4 says you immediately shuffle these discarded cards into the deck because 'whenever the deck is empty' you try to do this.

We now have an empty board and a deck of cards. The only way cards get onto the board is through action 7.2, which relies on a player buying a card and replacing the bought card with the top of the deck. The deck will sit in this state for the rest of the game because there are no cards to buy and replace and the board won't get filled. Future discards will build a new discard pile that also won't get used.


We played with an interpretation of rule 7.2 to say "Whenever there's an empty space on the board, replace it with a card from the deck." This means the board gets refilled after the discards go into the deck and we can buy the cards that were just discarded.

Is that what's intended?
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Goat: Yes, you played correctly. Though soon the advancement deck will grow to such a size that it won't matter. Players rarely discard cards on the quota action in game 1 because cards are precious and carry over to game 2.
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