Jeff Knutson
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One of Arnim Zola's tactics reads:

Fight: KO up to two of your Heroes that have less than 2 printed attack.

I am playing against the Flood the Planet with Melted Glaciers Scheme. I have 19 non gray Heroes KO'd at the moment (lose on the the 20th). I have one gray hero in my hand along with 1 colored Hero with less than 2 attack. Did I lose? I am confused by the "KO up to" part. Does this mean I can choose to only KO one or even none or am I grasping at straws on an agonizing defeat?

Thanks for the forth coming responses!
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Dave Roy
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
zakk1121 wrote:
One of Arnim Zola's tactics reads:

Fight: KO up to two of your Heroes that have less than 2 printed attack.

I am playing against the Flood the Planet with Melted Glaciers Scheme. I have 19 non gray Heroes KO'd at the moment (lose on the the 20th). I have one gray hero in my hand along with 1 colored Hero with less than 2 attack. Did I lose? I am confused by the "KO up to" part. Does this mean I can choose to only KO one or even none or am I grasping at straws on an agonizing defeat?

Thanks for the forth coming responses!


Just a guess, but I would think "up to" means that if you have three of them, you only need to KO two.
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
I would say that you can choose to KO 0 or 1 heroes, if you don't want to lose.
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James Drury
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
Let me reword the card for you to see if this helps.

KO 2 heroes, if possible, with a maximum printed attack value of 1.

If you have the heroes available in your hand, then you do not have a choice but to KO them, the "up to two" part of the text is so that you don't KO your entire hand, it isn't giving you the choice.
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Brian Morris
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
blipadouzi wrote:
Let me reword the card for you to see if this helps.

KO 2 heroes, if possible, with a maximum printed attack value of 1.

If you have the heroes available in your hand, then you do not have a choice but to KO them, the "up to two" part of the text is so that you don't KO your entire hand, it isn't giving you the choice.


This as correct. The cards in general are very specific. If you have an option it says "You may KO up to two heroes". If on the other hand it says ?KO up to two heroes" then it is mandatory. You must KO the two heroes.
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Darth Ed
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
I agree with ThinkingThatsAll. "Up to 2" includes 0 and 1. If 2 was mandatory, it wouldn't say "up to"; it would just say "KO 2" since the standard rule is to do as much as possible.
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James Drury
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
It should be noted that the following is written in the Clarification section of the rules pamphlet.

"Arnim Zola: Zola often checks for Heroes
that have “less than 2 printed \\\.” If you
need to check a card for a value, and the
card doesn’t have that value, then it
counts as 0. So cards that don’t have a
printed \\\ icon count as having “less
than 2 printed \\\.”"

In other words, any cards in your hand that had a printed * on it and no \\\ were valid cards to KO.
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Jeff Knutson
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
By the varied responses so far, I feel better about not knowing what the right answer is. I know some Mastermind tactics can actually have "beneficial" outcomes for the players and I couldn't tell if this was one of those cards allowing the player to trim their deck of up to 2 cards at their discretion or a negative one mandating the player KO up to 2 heroes that meet the requirements.

I appreciate all the responses so far, but must admit, I still don't know which way to lean on this one.
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Robert Clevidence
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
zakk1121 wrote:
By the varied responses so far, I feel better about not knowing what the right answer is.


I'm honestly surprised by the varied answers. I thought "up to" was accepted general board game terminology with an established meaning similar to "may." It would never occur to me to interpret that it as anything other than an optional instruction. Not that I'm an authority--I have a terrible record helping with rules in this forum. For what it's worth, I think DarthEd's reasoning is the most persuasive so far.
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Re: Question - Did I lose?
It would probably make sense to change the subject line to aid others who come across this issue.
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Jeff Knutson
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yaverot wrote:
It would probably make sense to change the subject line to aid others who come across this issue.


Done. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Justin H

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The wording on this card certainly is open to some interpretation. I've noticed that many times if something is optional, it will say "May". However, in this case it leaves that out. The phrase "up to" leads me to believe that it's still optional.

Loki's Maniacal Tyrant states "KO up to four cards from your discard pile." I don't think many people view that as mandatory.
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John Ward
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"Up to" simply means "no more than."

There is no option here. If you have 5 cards that you can KO, then you KO 2 of them.

If you have 2, 1, or 0, then you KO whatever you have.
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Justin H

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jhochges wrote:
The wording on this card certainly is open to some interpretation. I've noticed that many times if something is optional, it will say "May". However, in this case it leaves that out. The phrase "up to" leads me to believe that it's still optional.

Loki's Maniacal Tyrant states "KO up to four cards from your discard pile." I don't think many people view that as mandatory.


In contrast Loki's Whisper and Lies states "Each other player KOs two Bystanders from their Victory Pile." It is not an option because it doesn't say "up to." The other players have to KO two bystander, and if they only have one they need to KO that one. Much like Darth Ed said.
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Michael Green
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jhochges wrote:
jhochges wrote:
The wording on this card certainly is open to some interpretation. I've noticed that many times if something is optional, it will say "May". However, in this case it leaves that out. The phrase "up to" leads me to believe that it's still optional.

Loki's Maniacal Tyrant states "KO up to four cards from your discard pile." I don't think many people view that as mandatory.


In contrast Loki's Whisper and Lies states "Each other player KOs two Bystanders from their Victory Pile." It is not an option because it doesn't say "up to." The other players have to KO two bystander, and if they only have one they need to KO that one. Much like Darth Ed said.


I concur.

Though if it was Zola's last tactic you still wouldn't lose even if you did KO the card, as you defeated him before meeting the loss condition.
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Jeff Knutson
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Seems like a majority of respondents seem to think this is one of the beneficial Mastermind tactic effects for Heroes that allows you to KO up to 2 Heroes as a means of deck thinning as opposed to it being a punitive card effect. Truth be told, I could play devil's advocate and effectively argue this either way. I wish I had a 100% definitive ruling on this, but unless I hear other comments that sway me, I think I will roll with the majority ruling on this one.

Thanks for all the responses thus far! That is why I love this community so much!
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Brian Baier
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JBirdman wrote:
"Up to" simply means "no more than."

There is no option here. If you have 5 cards that you can KO, then you KO 2 of them.

If you have 2, 1, or 0, then you KO whatever you have.

I also disagree with this side of the interpretation.

I understand that you want there to be an explicit "may" written into the text, but it wouldn't be the first such oversight in consistent wording.

The best evidence to the interpretation I hold is this from Page 16 of the base game rules:

Special Abilities on Cards
... If a card tells you to do something, and you can’t do all of it, then do as much as you can. For example: if a card tells you to KO two Bystanders from your Victory Pile, and you only have one Bystander, then KO that Bystander.


By this ruling, your interpretation would be worded "Fight: KO two of your Heroes that have less than 2 printed attack."
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Justin H

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elucidarian wrote:
JBirdman wrote:
"Up to" simply means "no more than."

There is no option here. If you have 5 cards that you can KO, then you KO 2 of them.

If you have 2, 1, or 0, then you KO whatever you have.

I disagree with this side of the interpretation.

I understand that you want there to be an explicit "may" written into the text, but it wouldn't be the first such oversight in consistent wording.

The best evidence to the interpretation I hold is this from Page 16 of the base game rules:

Special Abilities on Cards
... If a card tells you to do something, and you can’t do all of it, then do as much as you can. For example: if a card tells you to KO two Bystanders from your Victory Pile, and you only have one Bystander, then KO that Bystander.


By this ruling, your interpretation would be worded "Fight: KO two of your Heroes that have less than 2 printed attack."


Absolutely, this matches what Darth Ed said as well, and is supported by the two different phrasing found in Loki's Tactics:


Loki's Maniacal Tyrant - "KO up to four cards from your discard pile." Non-mandatory.


Loki's Whisper and Lies - "Each other player KOs two Bystanders from their Victory Pile." Mandatory.
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Brian Baier
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For reference sake, I looked up the 8 other instances of "up to" rules text (sigh... of course I did). Only 2 of them are explicitly optional.

Sidekick: Players can pay to recruit up to one Sidekick per turn.

Nightcrawler
Along for the Ride
Teleport: When you play or Teleport this card, you may also Teleport up to three other cards from your hand.

Invisible Woman
Unseen Rescue: Focus 2 Recruit -> Rescue a Bystander. You may only use this ability up to four times this turn.

Phoenix Force Cyclops
Destruction is Creation: KO up to three cards from your hand. Draw that many cards.

Agent X-13
Mobilize for War: KO up to two S.H.I.E.L.D. Heroes from your hand and/or discard pile.

Bob, Agent of HYDRA
Epic Middle Manager
Excessive Violence: KO up to two HYDRA and/or S.H.I.E.L.D. Heroes from your discard pile. Draw a card for each Hero KO'd this way.

Wasteland Hulk MM
Radioactive Regeneration
Fight: KO up to two Wounds from your hand and/or discard pile.

Limbo
Inferno Nightcrawler
Fight: Up to two cards in your hand that have a Recruit icon gain Teleport this turn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I found no wording explicitly requiring a player to select (including the phrase "up to") as many game elements as possible within a maximum quantity.
The closest I came across are the following.

Iron Fist
Living Weapon: Reveal cards from your deck until you have revealed two cards with the same Cost. Draw all the cards you revealed.

Punisher
The Punisher: Reveal cards from the Hero Deck until you have revealed two cards with the same Cost. You get +1 Attack for each card revealed this way. Put them on the bottom of the Hero Deck in random order.

Dr. Octopus
Octo-Pulverize: Discard cards from the top of your deck until your deck runs out or you have discarded 8 cards (don't shuffle). Then you get +1 Attack for each card you discarded this turn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't see the developers creating such a weirdly specific ranging of effects. Although, in trying to figure out a concise wording similar to the preceding examples, I came up with a widely variable ability I don't think I've seen in Legendary:

"Fight: Reveal cards from your hand until you have revealed two Heroes that have less than 2 printed attack. KO all the cards you revealed."

This might be great early game, but later if you don't have any that cost less than 2, you'll KO your whole hand!
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Chris Deutsch
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With everything everyone has written and regards general language of the cards, it seems to me that "up to 2" includes 0 as a legal option. The card itself does not set a minimum number to KO, say all cards up to 2 total cards, or say "at least 1."
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James Drury
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straightedge wrote:
With everything everyone has written and regards general language of the cards, it seems to me that "up to 2" includes 0 as a legal option. The card itself does not set a minimum number to KO, say all cards up to 2 total cards, or say "at least 1."


If you take a minute and stop playing with semantics and syntax, put yourself in the developers shoes. Creating this card, do you really think their intention was to allow players the option to KO 0 cards?
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Justin H

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blipadouzi wrote:
straightedge wrote:
With everything everyone has written and regards general language of the cards, it seems to me that "up to 2" includes 0 as a legal option. The card itself does not set a minimum number to KO, say all cards up to 2 total cards, or say "at least 1."


If you take a minute and stop playing with semantics and syntax, put yourself in the developers shoes. Creating this card, do you really think their intention was to allow players the option to KO 0 cards?


Yes. It is a beneficial tactic card.

If it wasn't it would read like the Juggernaut Villain card otherwise, which states:

"Ambush: Each player KOs two Heroes from their discard pile."

That does not say "up to" because it's mandatory.
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Fernando Santos
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Being a Rules Lawyer by nature, i concur with the fact that "up to" is NOT mandatory.

It's to be used as a limit, it´s a beneficial tactic card. Some Masterminds from DC and beyond also have some.

Even that Bitch Phoenix has it...
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Jeff Knutson
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Thanks for all the great responses so far guys! I appreciate it!
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Tom
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I gotta agree with Darth Ed and others on this. Lacking any guidance from Upper Deck, I think it best to adhere to the simplest interpretation of the rule as written. "Up to" explicitly directs the choice of zero, one or two.
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