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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: White Lion's Bloody Claw, who to target? rss

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Nick Clinite
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Quote:
Pick Target:

closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens
no target: sniff


Survivor 1 is 2 spaces away and has 1 bleed token.

Survivor 2 is 3 spaces away and has 2 bleed tokens.

Who gets targeted?
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islan wrote:
Quote:
Pick Target:
closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens
no target: sniff
Survivor 1 is 2 spaces away and has 1 bleed token.

Survivor 2 is 3 spaces away and has 2 bleed tokens.

Who gets targeted?
Survivor one, he's the closest target. "with the most" is just to decide between the two if there are two at the same distance.
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k c
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and for the follow up...

If there are no survivors with bleeding tokens?

I believe that the closest survivor would still be targeted. If they all have zero bleeding tokens, then they tie for the most (tied at zero).
 
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Lance Good
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Lol...if thats the case I played this wrong at least once.

Regards
 
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Yup, I almost played it wrong too (dumb luck). We had 1 guy with 1 bleeding token, and so he was targeted. I complained "Man! if he didn't have any bleeding tokens, the Lion would have sniffed!". Figured out later, that probably would have been wrong.

I looked it up to make sure.

Rulebook pg 68: "Most/Least: Zero can count as most or least unless otherwise stated."
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Nick Clinite
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I'm not exactly sure if this card would ever sniff, unless there is something that can give survivors "cannot be targeted".
 
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R B
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islan wrote:
I'm not exactly sure if this card would ever sniff, unless there is something that can give survivors "cannot be targeted".


then when would the lion sniff?

if survivor 1 is 2 spaces away with 0 bleeding tokens,
survivor 2 is 3 spaces away with 1 bleeding token, and
survivor 3 is 4 spaces away with 2 bleeding tokens, wouldn't survivor 1 still be the target since its closest?
 
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yenam wrote:
islan wrote:
I'm not exactly sure if this card would ever sniff, unless there is something that can give survivors "cannot be targeted".


then when would the lion sniff?

if survivor 1 is 2 spaces away with 0 bleeding tokens,
survivor 2 is 3 spaces away with 1 bleeding token, and
survivor 3 is 4 spaces away with 2 bleeding tokens, wouldn't survivor 1 still be the target since its closest?


That is a good question.

There's 2 ways to interpret "closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens":

A. find the survivor with the most bleeding tokens, if there's a tie, go for the closest one.

B. find closest survivor. If there's a tie, go for the one with the most bleeding tokens.

Since we read left to right, it seems like B should be correct, but I think either is really a valid interpretation. I suppose it's up to the monster controller to pick A or B unless it gets in the FAQ.

Since Zero is still considered "Most", regardless of A or B, the Lion would never sniff with this card. There will always be a closest survivor unless everyone is dead.



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Steve Trewartha
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islan wrote:
I'm not exactly sure if this card would ever sniff, unless there is something that can give survivors "cannot be targeted".


There are actually quite a few cards where the instinct at the bottom of the targeting section is impossible since it would have to follow a previous targeting rule first. Almost every card with targeting has that though, and it is future proofing at this stage in case there is more rules/gear etc. in future that get around it.
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Nick Clinite
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kcrandall15 wrote:

That is a good question.


That's ... the exact same question I asked in the OP?
 
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sam newman

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kcrandall15 wrote:
yenam wrote:
islan wrote:
I'm not exactly sure if this card would ever sniff, unless there is something that can give survivors "cannot be targeted".


then when would the lion sniff?

if survivor 1 is 2 spaces away with 0 bleeding tokens,
survivor 2 is 3 spaces away with 1 bleeding token, and
survivor 3 is 4 spaces away with 2 bleeding tokens, wouldn't survivor 1 still be the target since its closest?


That is a good question.

There's 2 ways to interpret "closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens":

A. find the survivor with the most bleeding tokens, if there's a tie, go for the closest one.

B. find closest survivor. If there's a tie, go for the one with the most bleeding tokens.

Since we read left to right, it seems like B should be correct, but I think either is really a valid interpretation. I suppose it's up to the monster controller to pick A or B unless it gets in the FAQ.

Since Zero is still considered "Most", regardless of A or B, the Lion would never sniff with this card. There will always be a closest survivor unless everyone is dead.





way i did targeting was to target closest survivor with most bleed tokens (incase the most is tied it would be closest). If the most isnt in range then the monster moves as far as it can towards that target. The most can be 0 bleed tokens.
 
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Maxime Noel
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This card would have been much better if it was something like :
-Survivor with most bleeding token in range
-Sniff

Less confusion and the lion would really go for the bloodiest
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islan wrote:
kcrandall15 wrote:

That is a good question.


That's ... the exact same question I asked in the OP?


My apologies.
The "good question" was for "then when would the lion sniff?". I started the reply to point out that the Lion would never sniff, but got side tracked on the A/B thing.
I should have been more clear.
 
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Nick Clinite
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Oh okay, I wasn't really sure how the first and second questions in that post related to each other.
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Jens Futterer
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islan wrote:
Quote:
Pick Target:

closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens
no target: sniff


Survivor 1 is 2 spaces away and has 1 bleed token.

Survivor 2 is 3 spaces away and has 2 bleed tokens.

Who gets targeted?


Definitely Survivor 2!
Otherwise, the majority of the time, it's just going to target the closest Survivor, which makes the bleed token clause superfluous.
And thematically it is making sense.
But to be more precise: Survivor 1 just meets the 'closest survivor' part and Survivor 2 meets both parts of the statement. He is the closest survivor of those who have 2 or more bleeding tokens.
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Ghorron
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islan wrote:
Quote:
Pick Target:

closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens
no target: sniff


Survivor 1 is 2 spaces away and has 1 bleed token.

Survivor 2 is 3 spaces away and has 2 bleed tokens.

Who gets targeted?


We always played the second option, survivor 2 is chosen as target.
We use the "closest survivor" as tie breaker, in case more than one survivor have the most (equal amount of) bleeding tokens.

The lion will actually hunt down the most bleeding survivor, trying to finish him off with another round of bleeding tokens ;-)
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Jens Futterer
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ghorron wrote:

The lion will actually hunt down the most bleeding survivor, trying to finish him off with another round of bleeding tokens ;-)


This. That's exactly what I meant with 'thematically'!
 
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Fen Batten
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It's second option.

Whoever has the most bleed tokens, closest target in the case of ties on distance.

And yeah, if everyone has zero, zero is the most.
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Quote:
Survivor 1 is 2 spaces away and has 1 bleed token.
Survivor 2 is 3 spaces away and has 2 bleed tokens.


In the OP example. I prefer survivor #2 as the main target. It fits better with the theme of the card. Let's call it "blood before distance".

However, what if the OP adds Survivor #3 is 8 spaces away with 3 bleed tokens?

By that same interpretation , the lion will target #3, move toward them, but not quite reach to attack. There is no ",in range" specified, so ignoring those out of range would not be consistent.

I would think we want to choose which method is the worst outcome for survivors. However, both "Blood before Distance" vs. "Distance before Blood" can be considered worse than the other based on current circumstances.

Blood before Distance

This method can be extremely dangerous if Bloody Claw is the only AI card left in the deck. The bloody survivor might try to dash and stay distant, but if you don't put the Lion down quick, it will rapidly corner and kill #3 with 5 bleeding tokens (2/attack).

It can be less threatening if the AI deck has a lot of cards still. It will take some time to wrap back around and can be prepared for (head band) to waste 1 Lion's attack each time it pops up.

Distance before Blood

More attacks = worse. This can be more dangerous than the other interpretation because it is more likely the Lion won't waste its Bloody Claw attack chasing the bloodiest survivor out of range.

It's not as deadly because players can alternate closest survivor targets to spread out the bleeding instead of quickly piling them all up on the bloodiest guy.


As I said above, I currently like the "Blood before Distance" method.
I think I'll use it unless I come across a better argument, or there is an official clarification.

My reasons for preferring "Blood before Distance" are:

1. It seems more thematic to me that the Lion is going after the bloodiest.

2. It seems more dramatic. The danger can be higher or lower depending on the situation. Strategy can have greater effect on it.

3. I have come to my own conclusion that Pick Target should always be executed Right to Left. I think the Right most phrase/condition is the most specific scope. So I treat "most bleeding tokens" with more precedence than "closest survivor".

If you want to read my ramblings about executing Pick Target right to left, then read on...

in Pick Target, each phrase (after a comma) is more specific than the previous. Executing the phrases right to left (I believe) will always be clear, but left to right will sometimes cause confusion.

Best example:
random threat, in field of view
Executed [->] left to right: First randomize a threat. Now check if that random threat is in field of view. Oops, have to start over until I randomize one in field view.
Executed [<-] right to left: Only pick threats in Field of View. Now randomize one of those threats.

closest threat, facing, in range
Right to Left: Start by picking only those in range. Now further limit to those facing. Now further limit the pick to closest threat.

last survivor to wound, in range
Right to Left: Start by picking all survivors in range. Now, of these, who wounded last?


closest survivor with the most bleeding tokens
Arg, it's not perfect, because Bloody Claw has no comma darnit. I choose to read it as: closest survivor, most bleeding tokens.

Here is a list of all WL Pick Target options:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
closest threat, in field of view
closest knocked down survivor, in range
closest survivor, in range
victim of Grab last round
last survivor to wound, in range
random threat, in field of view
all non-deaf survivors
random survivor, in range
no target; sniff


 
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Nick Clinite
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Thanks for everyone weighing in, but I think I've figured out the answer:

Rule of Death.

The AI card purposefully can be interpreted two different ways. It is up to the Monster Controller to interpret it in the manner most damaging to the survivors in their current situation.
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David Sintec
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Monster controller is free to choose any valid interpretation of the monster targeting/move conditions - no need to invoke the rule of death here.
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Jens Futterer
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The Monster Controller is free to choose if there is more than one VALID target. But in this case you don't even know how many valid targets you have. It is not for him alone to freely interpret some badly written rules. So I would also go for Rule of Death.
 
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Nick Clinite
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Per the FAQ:

Quote:

Sometimes monsters are give instructions that are not immediately obvious. It is up to the monster controller to do their best in ensuring the worst possible outcome for the survivors.
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