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The African Campaign: Designer Signature Edition» Forums » General

Subject: What are these counters for....? rss

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Jack Stalica
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The following Division (note: NOT Brigade) armor units (front/back) in the counter mix that don't have any placement on their respective player OOBs:

German:

21 Div (2 counters): 5-7/3-7 and 2-6/1-5; and,
15 Div (2 counters): " " " " "

Allied:

1 Div (1 counter): 3-6/1-5;
7 Div (1 counter): 3-6/2-6; and,
2 Div (1 counter): 1-5/--

How are they to be used?
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Mike Wiik
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They are substitute counters for the divisions used for when a division takes step losses.

They are meant to be put on the division itself on the OoB however many people are confused by this, including myself
 
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John Kranz
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Yes, these should be placed in the unit breakdown/substitute boxes for these formations. I spoke to Todd Davis about having all the unit breakdowns listed in the breakdown boxes by formation ID, but he felt that it's best to keep them all organized together in a single box location -- so using the unit substitution area that exists for these formations and placing the step reduction breakdown unit there is where they can be placed.

I am going to do a game tutorial video on this which I think will help with understanding how to use the boxes further, to help clarify.

I'll post a link to the video here later today to help.
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Jack Stalica
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I got that they are breakdown units. But am I missing something because I don't see ANY mention of the unit IDs I list above on the OOB player aids...no entry date, no identification in the breakdown boxes...NOTHING...

I want to try this tonight so a clear, through explanation (i.e. not simply "they are breakdown units") would be appreciated.

 
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Robin Reeve
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The divisions' ID are on the counters.

See the thread that I opened on the same topic before you did: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1872397/step-losses-ful...
 
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John Kranz
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As promised, here is a video tutorial to assist with setting up units on the Order of Battle Appearance cards.

I hope you find this helpful!

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Jack Stalica
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Robin wrote:
The divisions' ID are on the counters.

See the thread that I opened on the same topic before you did: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1872397/step-losses-ful...


I KNOW that...!

Where on the OOB does it show entry for the ORIGINAL units with the IDs for which the counters I've listed above are the breakdown counters?
 
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Jack Stalica
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Ok...after watching the video NOW I finally get it: The breakdown counters for certain units - those which can be divided into component (or "substitute") units - are used when the UNDIVIDED unit takes step losses. The component units are NOT themselves the breakdown units. Best to place them near the undivided unit (like it's done in the video) to be clear.

Really confusing, this could have been far more inituitvely laid out and explained...
 
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Jack, what you are wanting to know is that the 15th and 21st Pz DIVISION counters - ALL of them: full strength and breakdown - start in the 15th and 21st Pz. Div. boxes on the OOB.

Since these divisions arrive as substitute units, and not as a 'division', their full-strength division counters also go into the OOB box until the Axis player combines the breakdown units.

This also applies to the British 1st Armored Div. divisional counters, since it arrives via substitute units as well.

The armored division units on both sides (both breakdown and substitute) go in these boxes. It's an 'either/or' situation here - either the division is on the map, in which case it's sub-units are in the box, or the sub-units are on the map, in which case ALL divisional units are in the division's box.

It seemed stupid to make a separate box with which to put the divisional step-loss counters, when there is already space assigned for the division. That's why the division counters are with the substitute units - they all belong to that one division.

I hope that helps jack!
 
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Jack said: Really confusing, this could have been far more inituitvely laid out and explained...

Sorry Jack, *I* think it IS intuitively laid out, but it was not explained well, that I'll Grant you. I really do not see what the problem is otherwise.

If I had put the breakdown counters separate from the substitute units, would you have complained that they were not placed together? Just checking.

 
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Jack Stalica
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TAD420 wrote:
Sorry Jack, *I* think it IS intuitively laid out, but it was not explained well, that I'll Grant you. I really do not see what the problem is otherwise.


I can see that - and yet I'm not the only one who was confused. So there IS a problem.

The layout is obviously inconsistent: you have breakdown boxes (with very specific unit labels) on one hand and then "divisible" units with substitute boxes. Yet the units with substitutes ALSO have breakdown counters - and yet there's no room for them.

 
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In almost all cases, there is only TWO units to a division - one on the map and one in the boxes - and only in a few cases are there three units.

Didn't seem to me to be an issue to have to have everything thing laid out and visible - c'mon you can have a couple of unit stacked in an OOB chart, can't you? Otherwise, there is a lot of unused space nearby to let the units sit - even without a <gasp> box. 8^)

Hey, were you going to make it over to the RSWE proofing party?

I can still ACT upon constructive criticism over there still! 8^)
 
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Jack Stalica
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Yes, but beware...I am ruthless when it comes to due diligence.

I may use expletives too. 😀
 
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Steven Johnson
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I'm not a newbie, been playing wargames for 40 years. But I found the OOB/step counters/rules to be a vague mess. I spent an hour fiddling with it before I got on BGG to look for help.
1) Even with 5/8 counters, it is a challenge to read the unit designations, and yes, I have my bifocals on. To find the OOB spot for the 1st counter is easy, but sorting through to find where the downgrade counters go is at best tedious, they should have some indicator for placement.
At best this will add real tedium to every setup, time that should have been spent playing.
And By the way, I am a fan and ardent supporter.

Some thoughts:
What happens to rookies or young kids who don't know about downloading errata, BGG on ConSimworld? They just toss this in the closet and never touch another wargame or send it back for a refund. Either way, the hobby loses.
Details matter.

Looking forward to this all getting sorted out and enjoying this game!
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