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Subject: 1.5 mixed feelings rss

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William Baker
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Hey there,

Just wanting to do a little summary of the good surprises and the little disappointments I've had as an owner of 1.0.

I pledged for a full 1.5 game because the content was too good and I really love the game.

Please feel free to add your thoughts or correct mine, hopefully we can get Adam to answer us on a few points.


*** Warning there might be some small spoilers below. ***




The good
- The game shipped quickly.
One or two months delay is NOTHIN for something so huge, kudos on having balls of steel and starting production before the KS ended.

- The game was well packaged and a really nice surprise on shipping fees. You don't often see that in KS (Never ?)

- The little quality issues some might have seems to be handled well and fast by the support.
There are bound to be printing and shipping issues with such a huge number of boxes

- Hardcover rulebook, I love you so much! Such a nice piece of art.

- Extra weapons for the sets that can be dual wielded as to be able to fields 2 suvivors equipped.





The disappointments
- The update to hunt events seems to be scarce and I was really hoping they would bring a bit more lore in them.

- Lore wise, the end of the campaign, and why the gold smoke knight show up and what happened after he is vanquished seems really poorly explained ... This is a big let down for me.
I hope the new expansions sets won't suffer from this, KDM lore and narration is a HUGE thing for me.

- The new insert doesn't correct the biggest issue, board sitting on top of dividers. There are even really simple fix to that I do not understand why it was not handled directly ?

- Scale issue between the old and young survivors and the regular one. I know the "everything is monster" excuse work, but seems like an oversight still.
I just hope this is not an indication of a new survivor size to expect for new expansion and gambler's chest.

- Expansion hunt cards color issue with the regular hunt card, especially lonely tree.

- Dividers still not the same size as expansion dividers, not sure if the new wave 2 expansions dividers will be corrected (I already have them anyway).

- Hunt rewards were after all not modified for Lion.

- Right now seems it's pretty much impossible to beat the smoke knigt without looping through phoenix, I really don't like that phoenix looping becomes something to look forward instead of being a fun twist.
Or maybe with expansions, but forcing ppl to own expansion to be able to end up the main box seems weak.

- No real update to The Hand showdown, still little incentive to beat him really.

- Why nerf the Butcher mask ? It was a rare occurence, now there are really no incentive to use the mask ...

Thanks for your inputs
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Fen Batten
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Yeah you're on point.

Add to it the following:

White Lion Armor still being hugely overcosted for what you get

Screaming Armor being over-tuned, it was already one of the best 3 armors in the game, now it might even be better than rawhide

Phoenix armor being really weak considering it costs iron to make, weak affinities, bad set bonus etc etc

Less popular/situational gear items not getting some tweaks to make them more desirable. Items like the scrap shield, bug trap, skullcap hammer, musk bomb, Lion Headdress, Hollow Sword, Sonic Tomahawk, Rawhide Whip, Feather Shield, Boss Mehndi etc are either situational or just plain weaker options that are not worth considering.

King's Curse still being very boring. Because of the lack of outfit + additional material keywords and affinities gaining the curse basically removes the survivor from the hunt party and leaves them in the settlement.

Hours ring changed from a tactically interesting and fun item (send out the blind survivor with two eyepatches!) to a cheesy item that is abusable in an annoying fashion.

Whips did not get any statistical upgrades or tweaks to their specialisation/mastery. The change to hunt events + oxidised ring whip are failed bandages for the problem. Daggers didn't even get that much of a nod.

And a lot of new loopholes being created because there are no external playtest teams, external playtesting teams spot things that the internal team won't because they have different perspectives on the game.

Twilight Sword and Hooded stranger now being stuck into hunt events. Not fun for PotStars/Sun and not lore appropriate.

Phoenix as a whole is even less worth hunting now once you get used to the game.

Don't get me wrong, KD:M 1.5 is an improvement over the previous edition. But it could have been so much more.
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Scott Cantor
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fenpaints wrote:
.
Don't get me wrong, KD:M 1.5 is an improvement over the previous edition. But it could have been so much more.


What’s been materially improved?
 
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Mark Watson
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WilliamB wrote:

- Scale issue between the old and young survivors and the regular one. I know the "everything is monster" excuse work, but seems like an oversight still.
I just hope this is not an indication of a new survivor size to expect for new expansion and gambler's chest.

The fact they're "young" and "old" survivor does kind of suggest they're at the extreme ends of the scale. Moving towards the narrative sculpts does mean they have a lot more flexibility in terms of body shape and size though. I don't actually mind the size of the Old Survivor, it makes him look like the kind of badass who's went through the worst KDM can throw at him and survived.
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Chris Magoulis
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Quote:
- The new insert doesn't correct the biggest issue, board sitting on top of dividers. There are even really simple fix to that I do not understand why it was not handled directly ?

As someone new to this game, this is something I was very confused by. Do you just keep the board separate on top of the box?
 
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Dennis Engilis
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I recently sold my 1.0 copy. While I owned it I came up with what I thought was an elegant solution to the box top smashing the dividers. The game comes with four narrow rectangular tiles that are maybe a half inch longer than the box is tall. I placed those tiles vertically in the four corners and they keep the box top from crushing the dividers.
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R2Dork wrote:
Quote:
- The new insert doesn't correct the biggest issue, board sitting on top of dividers. There are even really simple fix to that I do not understand why it was not handled directly ?

As someone new to this game, this is something I was very confused by. Do you just keep the board separate on top of the box?


https://www.amazon.com/Slide-Co-241945-Support-4-Inch-Plasti...

It works with a little plastic cement on the insert
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BG.EXE
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Archonsod wrote:
WilliamB wrote:

- Scale issue between the old and young survivors and the regular one. I know the "everything is monster" excuse work, but seems like an oversight still.
I just hope this is not an indication of a new survivor size to expect for new expansion and gambler's chest.

The fact they're "young" and "old" survivor does kind of suggest they're at the extreme ends of the scale. Moving towards the narrative sculpts does mean they have a lot more flexibility in terms of body shape and size though. I don't actually mind the size of the Old Survivor, it makes him look like the kind of badass who's went through the worst KDM can throw at him and survived.

Also, does nobody know tall people? I know a guy who is 6'9" and about 320 lbs. Maybe it's just that I'm deeply involved in lifting, but I mean huge people do exist. Just think of him as KD:M's version of The Mountain.
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fenpaints wrote:
Yeah you're on point.

Add to it the following:

White Lion Armor still being hugely overcosted for what you get

Screaming Armor being over-tuned, it was already one of the best 3 armors in the game, now it might even be better than rawhide

Phoenix armor being really weak considering it costs iron to make, weak affinities, bad set bonus etc etc

Less popular/situational gear items not getting some tweaks to make them more desirable. Items like the scrap shield, bug trap, skullcap hammer, musk bomb, Lion Headdress, Hollow Sword, Sonic Tomahawk, Rawhide Whip, Feather Shield, Boss Mehndi etc are either situational or just plain weaker options that are not worth considering.

King's Curse still being very boring. Because of the lack of outfit + additional material keywords and affinities gaining the curse basically removes the survivor from the hunt party and leaves them in the settlement.

Hours ring changed from a tactically interesting and fun item (send out the blind survivor with two eyepatches!) to a cheesy item that is abusable in an annoying fashion.

Whips did not get any statistical upgrades or tweaks to their specialisation/mastery. The change to hunt events + oxidised ring whip are failed bandages for the problem. Daggers didn't even get that much of a nod.

And a lot of new loopholes being created because there are no external playtest teams, external playtesting teams spot things that the internal team won't because they have different perspectives on the game.

Twilight Sword and Hooded stranger now being stuck into hunt events. Not fun for PotStars/Sun and not lore appropriate.

Phoenix as a whole is even less worth hunting now once you get used to the game.

Don't get me wrong, KD:M 1.5 is an improvement over the previous edition. But it could have been so much more.


Do you still think you're going to release your fixes now that you've seen the update? Think Italics mentioned a KD: M Community edition or something?

Could be misquoting/misunderstanding.
 
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Gabriel Wannes
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
Archonsod wrote:
WilliamB wrote:

- Scale issue between the old and young survivors and the regular one. I know the "everything is monster" excuse work, but seems like an oversight still.
I just hope this is not an indication of a new survivor size to expect for new expansion and gambler's chest.

The fact they're "young" and "old" survivor does kind of suggest they're at the extreme ends of the scale. Moving towards the narrative sculpts does mean they have a lot more flexibility in terms of body shape and size though. I don't actually mind the size of the Old Survivor, it makes him look like the kind of badass who's went through the worst KDM can throw at him and survived.

Also, does nobody know tall people? I know a guy who is 6'9" and about 320 lbs. Maybe it's just that I'm deeply involved in lifting, but I mean huge people do exist. Just think of him as KD:M's version of The Mountain.


And people seem to forget there are huge people like shaquille o`Neill on our world too. And on the other end of that scale....Kevin hart. I read that someone had problems with the old survivors hands. He thought they were too big. *sigh*
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that Matt
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BG.EXE
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The thing about that picture is that Arnold is pretty dang big, too. He's either 5'10" or 6'2" depending on where you fall on that particular conspiracy, but he was 235 lbs or so when he was fully lean for bodybuilding shows.

Wilt Chamberlain and Andre the Giant were crazy huge.
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Oda
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If the insert were any taller, they would have had to ship the minis box as a separate entity. No less annoying that the box needs modding to effectively use for storage, but inserts are also for shipping and this one at least worked well for that.
 
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William Baker
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On the old survivor, I'm ok with one dude being huge.
I'm more worried about the upcoming narrative sculpt being on the same scale as him or a third scale, making the armor set survivor really tiny.
 
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WilliamB wrote:
- Scale issue between the old and young survivors and the regular one.

I just hope this is not an indication of a new survivor size to expect for new expansion and gambler's chest.


There is no scale issue. Humans come in different sizes and the Old and Young are show that Adam no longer has to make every Survivor the same size.

I hope that Adam takes full advantage of the Narrative Sculpts in the GC to have more variety in body types and sizes for Survivors.
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Nick Wirtz
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William/Fen's criticisms: can't disagree (from what I've experienced).

Also, I'd never considered the KC gear getting outfit, that would be pretty cool to make that thing not just a boring penalty.

If the GSK really isn't able to be beaten in the core without
Spoiler (click to reveal)
cheesing a mechanic (or getting lucky with mists drawing/rolling right) and doubling the campaign length
, I think that's a terrible design choice. Getting slaughtered without proper understanding of the fight? I can live with that. Losing because you don't have an intimate understanding of the system? That sucks.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Also, I think the game is plenty long enough, as-is. I don't think there's any reason the campaign should be designed around being 50+ sessions to have decent odds, and that's made even worse if the end of that isn't epically awesome, narratively.
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WRT the insert and dividers, 1.5 could have split the difference with a slightly taller insert, say 1/8" taller; and slightly smaller dividers with the printing just a bit closer to the upper edge. Same functionality, but better fit.
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Mark Watson
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GrauGeist wrote:

There is no scale issue. Humans come in different sizes and the Old and Young are show that Adam no longer has to make every Survivor the same size.

I hope that Adam takes full advantage of the Narrative Sculpts in the GC to have more variety in body types and sizes for Survivors.


Well, within reason. There's something altogether less menacing about a Butcher who requires a stepladder just to attack your kneecaps.
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Archonsod wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:

There is no scale issue. Humans come in different sizes and the Old and Young are show that Adam no longer has to make every Survivor the same size.

I hope that Adam takes full advantage of the Narrative Sculpts in the GC to have more variety in body types and sizes for Survivors.


Well, within reason. There's something altogether less menacing about a Butcher who requires a stepladder just to attack your kneecaps.


I don't find the Old Survivor as unreasonably large as you suggest compared to the Butcher.
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
William/Fen's criticisms: can't disagree (from what I've experienced).

Also, I'd never considered the KC gear getting outfit, that would be pretty cool to make that thing not just a boring penalty.

If the GSK really isn't able to be beaten in the core without
Spoiler (click to reveal)
cheesing a mechanic (or getting lucky with mists drawing/rolling right) and doubling the campaign length
, I think that's a terrible design choice. Getting slaughtered without proper understanding of the fight? I can live with that. Losing because you don't have an intimate understanding of the system? That sucks.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Also, I think the game is plenty long enough, as-is. I don't think there's any reason the campaign should be designed around being 50+ sessions to have decent odds, and that's made even worse if the end of that isn't epically awesome, narratively.


Is that a complaint people are having with the GSK? I've purposely kept pretty blind from looking at this stuff, though the huge toughness was pretty intimidating.
 
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Nathan Ehlers
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Is the issue people are having that the old survivor is just big or is he actually out of scale? Has anyone bothered to do measurements and ratios on the new models?
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Purple, my group's a few years from the end on what currently feels like a pretty average late-game settlement compared to our others: maybe around 3/4 as good as our best. If we don't win the first time, and it doesn't feel close, I'm considering playing it a few times to see how punishing it is, since some veterans who are faster than my group seem to think it can't be done without (of course, ignoring anomalous luck). I don't think it should be beatable by any settlement that makes it there, but do think that a reasonably good one should stand a chance.

I haven't looked either, but feel like it's very likely my group will end up with something like 1 slow damage dealer (that should be able to wound pretty reliably); 1 fast damage dealer; 1 crit factory; maybe 1 other slow damage dealer, that can hit its defenses.
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Ethan Sams
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I am in complete agreement. I'm going to start coming up with variants, house-rules, etc. to fix some of the more obvious problems. Just a few off the top of my head:

-Collective toil is still awful. Even if you think it is barely usable with PtY, it is completely useless with SoTF, making it not really a decision.
-Settlement events need updating/reworking, especially plague
-You mentioned the Hand already, but I am dumbfounded it wasn't touched at all. The requirements to get the SFA... seriously?
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Exo Desta wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
Also, does nobody know tall people? I know a guy who is 6'9" and about 320 lbs. Maybe it's just that I'm deeply involved in lifting, but I mean huge people do exist. Just think of him as KD:M's version of The Mountain.

I'm with you, but it feels weird to have the Old survivor as the huge guy. Yeah, I get it: you have to be a badass to get to that age in the world of KDM. But people lose mass, as they get older. This guy must have been a literally a giant during his hayday.

I'll get used to it. Just would have rather seen some other unique model get this kind of treatment, and give the Old guy his own sense of belonging/charm (afterall, you don't have to reach far to give it to him -- he's "the old guy". Except now he's "the old and huge guy". Doesn't have the same ring, to me).


Not a fan of dragon ball master roshi i take? or Saint seiya Libra?, there are plenty anime tropes of old guys that arebuffed badasses
 
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Let’s be honest. Some aspects of KD:M are pretty close to anime. Granted the majority of them are non-gameplay (which I am thankful for) but there are plenty of thicc waifus in the KD:M universe.
 
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