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Nations at War: White Star Rising» Forums » Rules

Subject: Mount and dismount rss

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thierry seguy
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The 3 MP are subtracted from the side of the counter to which the unit flips.
So an armored infantry on the halftrack side can move 5 MP, dismount (3 MP subtracted from the infantry side) and stop (no MP remaining to infantry side)
But can an armored infantry on his infantry side move 3 mp, mount (flips to the halftrack side, subtracted 3 MP from this halftrack side ) and finish to move with the last 2 MP of the halftrack?
I think yes for logical but not sure.
Thanks.
 
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Marc Hanna
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That's right unless something else in the rulebook contradicts that.
 
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Warren Smith
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Honosbinda wrote:
That's right unless something else in the rulebook contradicts that.

Can't argue with that according to the rules, but that just makes no sense to me.

So, an infantry can move it's full allowance during a turn, and then load up and move another 67% of the distance? Yet, if an infantry loads at the start of a turn, it can only move 2 hexes? How does that make sense? I'm probably wrong, but it sure feels like a rule oversight TO ME.
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Marc Hanna
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wsmithjr wrote:


So, an infantry can move it's full allowance during a turn, and then load up and move another 67% of the distance? Yet, if an infantry loads at the start of a turn, it can only move 2 hexes? How does that make sense? I'm probably wrong, but it sure feels like a rule oversight TO ME.

Actually, this is discussed by the designer in another thread.

The rationale is that mounting and dismounting were too slow for maneuver in the first editions of the game.

Not saying I agree with it. I also don't like the 1MP rate of movement on roads. What's the point of roads if they aren't any better than open ground (clear) terrain?
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Warren Smith
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Honosbinda wrote:
Actually, this is discussed by the designer in another thread.

The rationale is that mounting and dismounting were too slow for maneuver in the first editions of the game.

Not saying I agree with it.

Yeah. If it's the thread I'm thinking about, I participated in that one too. However, in my mind, that was more a question of units being able to unload even though no movement was left on the infantry side of the counter. So, taking them into "negative" movement points is OK to ease the units ability to get places. To me, that seems a playability issue. But, to give them "bonus" moves ... that seems to me a weird time warp kind of issue.

But, yes, rules as written, allows it.

Quote:
I also don't like the 1MP rate of movement on roads. What's the point of roads if they aren't any better than open ground (clear) terrain?

Good point. It does help get through rough terrain. I guess at this scale, that doesn't bother me as much as the above.
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Sean Druelinger
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Hello

The difficulty in attempting to improve on the transport rules was a not an easy decision. Since each turn is 15 minutes (approximately) and the transports are abstractly represented (meaning that they disappear and re-appear when loaded or unloaded, AND that movement with vehicles was awkward in rev 1, a change was needed.

Most trucks and tracks move 4 or 5, so in the old rule they were not efficient in delivering troops to where they needed to be. It would take 2 turns to move 6 or 7 hexes to drop off troops. In game time that is 30 minutes to travel about 1/2 a mile.

In our testing I found that infantry could get into the action faster and were less vulnerable hanging out in transports for 2 turns.

As for roads they are handy in bad weather scenarios and allow you access through terrain.

I do appreciate any feedback concerning this and please point out anything about this that you think would improve, including changing rules back

thank you in advance
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing




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Marc Hanna
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Sean,

appreciate the clarification about the roads. I haven't played any bad weather scenarios yet! I don't mind the mount/dismount as it has been abstracted and we don't have to park our trucks and halftracks out of LOS and deal with them.
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Warren Smith
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I sympathize with the difficulty in getting something that works. My problem isn't so much that the infantry can move 3 and then load and move another 2. My issue is that if the infantry loads FIRST, then it can only move 2 TOTAL, and the fact that it is *when* the infantry loads that determines how far overall they can move in the turn ... that's where I lose all sense of "realism".

So, I think the first question that needs to be answered: in the situation where an infantry wants to load up and move, how far *should* they be able to move? And don't forget guns when you're thinking about this. That said, guns can be a different rule as they are completely different in reality to a bunch of guys jumping in a truck. Even if so, I don't think we're talking about complex rules systems here.

Anyway, if you want the infantry to travel a full 5 hexes, then the solution COULD (and I stress COULD as I'm still thinking about it in relation to the big picture) be that the infantry deducts the load cost from their own movement factor. So, the infantry can move 3, and to load costs 3, so if they load, they can not move on their own as it costs them 3 to load, but then the truck can move 5. If you flip that around, you can still deduct the unloading cost from the infantry, so the truck could move all 5 hexes and then unload sending the infantry into negative MF and ending their turn.

If you want to let them load even after they have moved, then you could deduct the "excess" movement cost from the truck side. So, if the infantry moves 2 and then loads leaving the infantry side with -2mf, then the truck can only move 3 further. It is slightly fiddlier, which I can understand not wanting, but it then solves the problem of being able to move different distances depending on when the unit loads.

Maybe some variation on the above would work and not be fiddly but still keep things consistent which at least to me should be important. Anyway, that's just an idea for what it's worth, if anything as I am certainly no game designer.
 
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Sean Druelinger
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Hi Warren

Thank you very much for your feedback concerning mount and dismount. I do see your point that the sense of realism may not be present in the rule. The one question we asked when we looked at this was, what could be accomplished by a unit within a 15 minute time period? The problem we were trying to fix was to make transports more useful and less vulnerable than they are in v1.

We felt it was a realistic expectation for a platoon to travel a 1/4 mile (approximately 450 meters or 3 hexes) load a truck and travel another 1/4 mile or less in 15 minutes. I drew this from personal experience and with the other various sources that I speak to regularly (including my dad )

From a game design perspective, an easy fix would have been to give the transports more Movement Factors. This would have solved the issue hands down. We would not have needed to change the rule at all. If we did that however, we would have added problems for folks who wanted to use new rules but did not want to purchase the 2nd edition and thus not have the counters of the mobile units with more movement factors.

I completely expect that we may need to change rules in the game as players of the system come across rule questions. I personally appreciate anyone's feedback whether they have designed anything or not. Players are the best source for any improvement needed for a game and I for one am happy to have folks like yourself take time out of your day to post a constructive comment.

Thank you
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing
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dj johnson
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I add 1 mp to AFV, 2 to trucks/jeeps and 3 to Motorcycles as long as they spend their entire move on the road and don't fire, dismount etc.
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