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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Combat damage and healing rss

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Björn Harzer
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Hi
Probably got a simple question. When I got a character blocking and he takes damage beyond the hit points, do I still have time to trigger an effect to heal the blocker and keep him in play before he is destroyed and discarded from play?
Thanks.
 
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Javier Martínez
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No you don't. If the damage that character receives from the attack exceeds or matches that character's "life points" it should be instantly destroyed.
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Jeremy Yoder
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Healing is too late. But any affect that can cancel damage, which would occur before damage is applied, can work. But there are only a couple cards that do that.
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Dale Stephenson
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Beejer2000 wrote:
Hi
Probably got a simple question. When I got a character blocking and he takes damage beyond the hit points, do I still have time to trigger an effect to heal the blocker and keep him in play before he is destroyed and discarded from play?
Thanks.


Once he's damaged you can't, but there *are* several action windows where you can heal before combat damage is resolved. The steps are as follows for enemy attacks:

1) Choose an enemy
2) Declare defender
3) Resolve shadow effect
4) Determine combat damage

There are action windows between each step, and the damage from the attack itself only is applied in the fourth step. So you can use an action to ready a potential defender between step one and step two, for example.

So suppose Denethor (3 def, 3 hp) has 2 damage and is going to defend against a 4-attack enemy. This would ordinarily kill him, but you can use a Daugheter of Nimrodel after step 1 or step 2 or step 3 so that he is healed before the combat damage is actually applied.


However, if you decided to wait until after step 3 to use Daughter of Nimrodel, and the shadow said to assign one damage to the defender, Denethor would die right there and the attack would be undefended. You can't use actions *during* the step, just between them. However, you could still save Denethor if you had a *response* that could avert the damage (like cancelling the shadow with Hasty Stroke or preventing the damage with an Honour Guard). If the shadow just was +1 attack instead, the increased attack isn't applied until step four, so you have an action window to heal him up or increase his defense.
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Björn Harzer
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hi guys,
thanks for all the replies. helps me to get my head around it. I guess I have been applying the rules from MTG so far, which are much more concise around event, response and batch resolution than LotR Card game
beeper
 
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Björn Harzer
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can't even spell my own name or is it auto correct?
beejer
 
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Patrick Gilner
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dalestephenson wrote:
Beejer2000 wrote:
Hi
Probably got a simple question. When I got a character blocking and he takes damage beyond the hit points, do I still have time to trigger an effect to heal the blocker and keep him in play before he is destroyed and discarded from play?
Thanks.


Once he's damaged you can't, but there *are* several action windows where you can heal before combat damage is resolved. The steps are as follows for enemy attacks:

1) Choose an enemy
2) Declare defender
3) Resolve shadow effect
4) Determine combat damage

There are action windows between each step, and the damage from the attack itself only is applied in the fourth step. So you can use an action to ready a potential defender between step one and step two, for example.

So suppose Denethor (3 def, 3 hp) has 2 damage and is going to defend against a 4-attack enemy. This would ordinarily kill him, but you can use a Daugheter of Nimrodel after step 1 or step 2 or step 3 so that he is healed before the combat damage is actually applied.


However, if you decided to wait until after step 3 to use Daughter of Nimrodel, and the shadow said to assign one damage to the defender, Denethor would die right there and the attack would be undefended. You can't use actions *during* the step, just between them. However, you could still save Denethor if you had a *response* that could avert the damage (like cancelling the shadow with Hasty Stroke or preventing the damage with an Honour Guard). If the shadow just was +1 attack instead, the increased attack isn't applied until step four, so you have an action window to heal him up or increase his defense.


This is the clearest explanation of combat action windows I've seen. I think I've been doing step four wrong for years and could have saved myself some painful losses. What I'm not clear on yet is whether you could use a healing action after you flip over the shadow card. Is revealing the shadow card and finding out its effect part of step 3, or is it step 4? That is, is it possible to find out what the shadow effect is before applying its negative effect(s)?

So, for example: I have Denethor with 2 damage on him. He is defending against an enemy with attack strength 3. I reveal the shadow card in step 3, and its only effect is to increase the attacking enemy's combat strength by 1. Do I now have a chance to heal the two damage on him before I apply the (4 attack strength - 3 defense = 1 damage) to Denethor?
 
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Tim Franklin
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Magumba wrote:
This is the clearest explanation of combat action windows I've seen. I think I've been doing step four wrong for years and could have saved myself some painful losses. What I'm not clear on yet is whether you could use a healing action after you flip over the shadow card. Is revealing the shadow card and finding out its effect part of step 3, or is it step 4? That is, is it possible to find out what the shadow effect is before applying its negative effect(s)?

So, for example: I have Denethor with 2 damage on him. He is defending against an enemy with attack strength 3. I reveal the shadow card in step 3, and its only effect is to increase the attacking enemy's combat strength by 1. Do I now have a chance to heal the two damage on him before I apply the (4 attack strength - 3 defense = 1 damage) to Denethor?


Yes. Reveal and apply the shadow effect is step 3. In this case, the effect is to increase the damage that *will* happen in step 4. It hasn't happened yet.

You now have a window between steps 3 and 4 where you can heal, *then* step 4 happens, and the increased damage is dealt.
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Patrick Gilner
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Marvelous! Thank you so much! I've definitely been doing it wrong for ages...
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Niall Howard
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A thread ain't a thread until Dale has commented.
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John Berry

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Magumba wrote:

This is it possible to find out what the shadow effect is before applying its negative effect(s)?

I think you mean: is it possible to counteract a shadow effect before applying its negative effect(s)?
And IMO the answer is 'No'/'Sometimes'.

The shadow effect is applied immediately (unless you can stop it with a Response - that's the 'sometimes').

Often the shadow will be an effect such as buffing the attackers strength - this happens immediately, however the increased strength attack hasn't happened yet so you will then have an action window for the option to play actions/events.
(This is the situation of your example case).

However, if the shadow effect was to add damage to your defender (for example), this will also happen immediately and you don't have an action window in which to counter it (you would then need a specific shadow response card).
 
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Dale Stephenson
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There are four ways to find out what a Shadow card is before it is revealed.

The first way is to scry the encounter deck, there are a variety of cards that look at and/or reorder the deck, so (for example) you could use Hennamarth Riversong or Denethor to look at the top card of the encounter deck *before* it is dealt as a shadow in the combat phase (and in Denethor's case, put it on the bottom of the deck if you don't like it). This isn't frequently done, because it's generally more useful to scry what's coming up in the staging step of the quest phase. In some cases you know just because of an encounter effect, for example when the location Banks of the Anduin is cleared (typically happens in the quest phase), it returns to the top of the encounter deck, so you know the first shadow card dealt will be harmless.

The second way is the core card Dark Knowledge (lore attachment, cost 1). You can exhaust it to "look at 1 shadow card just dealt to you". It does give -1 willpower, so you'd want to put it on a combat hero. There's no limit, but as it's a 1x card in the core set, and not a popular card at that, it'd be unusual to see multiples in play.

The third way is the two cost spirit attachment Silver Lamp (from Voice of Isengard deluxe) that causes all spirit cards dealt to you to be face up if the attached hero is ready. However, it must be attached to a spirit hero, and as most are questers, it limits the options for this card. Note that being face up means that Eldahir (below), Jubayr, and Shadows Give Way don't work on those shadows. However, it should work with Small Target and is beautiful with Armored Destrier and two enemies -- defend against the weaker shadow, ready with the Destrier and discard the stronger shadow, then defend against it.

The fourth way is the 4-cost leadership ally Eldahir (Thing in the depths), any player can spend 1 resource to look at a facedown shadow card, and if it has an effect gives Eldahir +2 defense. There's no limit on the action, so if you have enough lore resources you can look at the same shadow until the desired defense is reached.
 
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William Wilting
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As I understand this explanation, there is an important difference between 'dealing damage in step 3' and 'adding damage in step 3'. If the shadow effect would instruct you to deal the damage, then you should immediately put those tokens on. But when you add the damage, you're not taking it yet.
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John Berry

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0616william wrote:
As I understand this explanation, there is an important difference between 'dealing damage in step 3' and 'adding damage in step 3'. If the shadow effect would instruct you to deal the damage, then you should immediately put those tokens on. But when you add the damage, you're not taking it yet.


Bingo! Direct damage is applied immediately (damage tokens added to the defender with no action window within which to play cards (bar a shadow response)).

Buffed Attack Points (added damage) will only cause you grief during the attack and you have an action window before that.

(Note: This buff is applied immediately to the enemy but it won't tend to have any effect on you until the attack happens (step 4))
 
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