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Subject: [...as if on this card] rss

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Fiendish Williams
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Hi,
Just have a question about the term [as if they were on this card]. e.g. on The Daily Courant.
So does that change the icon of the dogma? For exemple I use The Daily Courant to activate Compass, which icon should I count to determine the legal target of Compass? (The dogma of The Daily Courant doesn't state that it can only be used to activate non-demand dogmas.)
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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Quoting the entire text is helpful, or at least which expansion and age the card is in. I've not seen that card, and would like to see the entire text in context to be able to answer it.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I found the card, it was clearly an Artifact from the name. Turns out it's in Age 5.

Text is:
Quote:
Factory: Draw a card of any value, then place it on top of the draw pile of its age. Execute the effects of one of your other top cards as if they were on this card. Do not share them.


Now, we know from the errata info that the featured icon on the card is always meant to be the most common icon on the card. Thus, I think we should ignore the icon on the chosen card and activate the demand effect using the factory icon to determine those affected.

Edit: Incidentally, there is another question to answer here... As it just says 'effects' and not 'dogma effects', do we also activate the echo effects and/or inspire effects on the card? I'd definitely agree you don't do the echo or inspire effects lower in the stack, only those on the top card, but this is an odd new wording, as we are used to being told to 'execute the non-demand dogma effects'.
 
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Carl Chudyk
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Clipper wrote:
As it just says 'effects' and not 'dogma effects', do we also activate the echo effects and/or inspire effects on the card? I'd definitely agree you don't do the echo or inspire effects lower in the stack, only those on the top card, but this is an odd new wording, as we are used to being told to 'execute the non-demand dogma effects'.

You activate the echo effects, the demand effects, and non-demand effects of the top card. Since you normally don't activate inspire effects when dogmaing, you wouldn't in "as if on this card" dogma cases either.
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Christian K
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So it is the echo effects of the stack with factory and bot the stack with the card you are activating, right?

When playing I found this template curious. What is it supposed to achieve?
 
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Carl Chudyk
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Muemmelmann wrote:
So it is the echo effects of the stack with factory and not the stack with the card you are activating, right?
Yes.

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Jorgen Peddersen
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Muemmelmann wrote:
So it is the echo effects of the stack with factory and bot the stack with the card you are activating, right?

I interpreted Carl's response as confirming that you activate only the effects on the top card, not of the entire stack.

But given Carl's response, I see I misread your statement. So I believe you still do the Echo effect of the top card you choose too, though.

Quote:
When playing I found this template curious. What is it supposed to achieve?

According to Wikipedia, The Daily Courant was Britain's first daily newspaper and it would only source news copied from foreign sources.

So the card appears to allow you to scry a card from an Age of your choice, then make a copy of one of the other cards on your tableau and do that as if it used the Industry symbol.
 
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Christian K
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I mean the formulation "execute its effect as if they were in this card" why not just execute them?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Muemmelmann wrote:
I mean the formulation "execute its effect as if they were in this card" why not just execute them?

Because the featured icon may be different, which is important if the chosen card has demand effects, I guess.
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Christian K
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Yes I understand it makes a difference, but what is the point. Why can't it just have the icon which it has?

This formulated in used in a lot of places so I assumed there was some point to it.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Muemmelmann wrote:
This formulated in used in a lot of places so I assumed there was some point to it.

It certainly helps that you don't ever have to do a comparison on any other icon type when such wording is used.This would be particularly annoying with The Daily Courant if multiple players are sharing, activating demand effects and you thus would have to compare several different icon types throughout the Dogma action.
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Fiendish Williams
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And I am just thinking about something weird...
You can activate The Daily Courant by using for exemple Self Service. And activate Self Service by using The Daily Courant. That will create an endless loop if all the players have the same amount of achievements or you have the most crown. So you can scry through every top card of the deck in one single action...
So in this case what do we do to the echoes effect? If they are activated multiple times they can obviously break the time and space. e.g. Draw a 2 may cause you to drain every deck and directly end the game.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Self Service has no echo effects, and the cards lower in its stack are ignored, so there won't be anything to accelerate to exploit unless there is a Figure interfering with the combo somehow.

Having said that, I believe there is a ruling for Figures that you can only activate one copy of each effect in any chain of events, thus preventing infinite loops.

I would probably apply the same ruling to any Self Service/The Daily Courant type combo so that if you choose Self Service with The Daily Courant, then Self Service cannot pick The Daily Courant (or can pick it, but there is no effect, as that dogma effect is still in the chain).

Edit: So I misremembered the rule. The actual rule is that Karma effects cannot trigger Karma effects at all.

Still, I feel that the loop should be broken in a way similar to the above situation, as a player with only Self Service and The Daily Courant as their only top cards would cause an infinite loop if either was given a Dogma Action. Neither card has a 'may', so there is no way out.
 
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Carl Chudyk
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The rule in Figures is that Karma effects cannot trigger off other Karma effects.

It may be possible for a game to accelerate to an end via an infinite loop using Daily Courant and certain other cards, in the same way it can end via infinite loop from the single Artifact card Pride and Prejudice if none of your stacks are splayed.

If an infinite loop occurs that must continue due to the text of the cards and not by player choice, and that loop has no game-state changing effect or begins to have no game-state changing effect during its execution deeming it truly infinite, the game is a draw.
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Fiendish Williams
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So I assume that when The Daily Courant and Self Service form an infinite loop the player should chose another card to target in order to break the loop? Cauz when targeting a card it still depends on the choice of the player.
 
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Carl Chudyk
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as hole wrote:
So I assume that when The Daily Courant and Self Service form an infinite loop the player should chose another card to target in order to break the loop? Cauz when targeting a card it still depends on the choice of the player.
Yes.
 
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Kevin Sonnanburg
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The rules say "in the rare case that multiple Karma effects are triggered by the same action...". That reads to me like there can never be multiple Karmas per action triggering under any circumstances. Is that right, or is that sentence meant only for Karmas triggered by other Karmas?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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circumbendibus wrote:
The rules say "in the rare case that multiple Karma effects are triggered by the same action...". That reads to me like there can never be multiple Karmas per action triggering under any circumstances. Is that right, or is that sentence meant only for Karmas triggered by other Karmas?


The rules actually say:

"In the rare case that multiple "Would" karmas are triggered by the same action, the current player decides which karma occurs and ignores the others."

This is because most 'Would' karmas either do something before or instead of the thing you would have been doing. It ensures that you only choose one of the things, so that you don't have to interpret the multiple 'insteads'.

The sentence is meant to be taken as its own context, it is not modifying the prior one that states you can never trigger a karma from another karma.
 
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