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Time of Legends: Joan of Arc» Forums » General

Subject: The cause for conern rss

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Homo Ludens
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Well this campaign seems to be a car designed by Homer Simpson. I just don't think it will be possible for MG, with all the best of intentions, to deliver this mass of plastic. The game itself is a fine little skirmish game with an emphasis on narrative story scenarios. It has become a bloated mass of plastic.

Apocalypse is not to my aesthetic taste. For the same reason I never liked Chaos Marines in 40k. Set that aside and at $70 it just makes a lot of the other add-ons look like poor value.

The rules, such as we have, just don't seem capable of dealing with large scale battles. I do not think that most of this could possibly have been play tested enough to ensure balance.

I will risk a Maiden Pledge as that is money I can afford to lose and not worry. If I get the game next December then all well and good. Beyond that, no thanks. I can spend that money on games that have been fully play tested over a long period, don't rely on a mass of plastic to add gloss to an ok game system, and can be on the table right now.

Leo spending 3 hours talking about nothing last night when he should have been sorting out the update raised a big red flag for me. I think the team has got lost, not focusing on the core game and making that great, and instead just adding more and more stuff. I left after an hour because it was clear he had noting to say about the Apocalypse update.
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Tom Hoefle
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why do you post the exact same thing that you posted at the comments?

and again i think they have playtested this a lot and will do so till next year

but if you wanna be negativ .....
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Marko Parviainen
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Why is there a cause for concern?

The game has been playtested for a long time with a thousands of people... you are implying that it is not playtested at all.

The Mythic Battles Pantheon delivered early, so MG does seem to be able to put together a game with lots of plastics and still deliver on time.
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Homo Ludens
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Demo games are not playtesting. If you don't know the difference then you don't know game design.

The game has so many elements now that I cannot see how it could have been playtested adequately. The lack of a proper rulebook to release prior to the end of the KS reinforces this.

Go ahead and call anyone who dares to challenge your rosy world view 'negative'

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Tobias Loeffler
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I have the same concern: Lack of focus and vision when it comes to the design of the game.

I also agree on the live streams: While I appreciate their will to engage with the community and general enthusiasm for their game, most of the time was spend on zooming in on miniatures.

That tells me more than anything else, what they are selling here. The absurd amount of game-modes and scenarios are another red flag for me. If you want an actual game and not just miniatures, IMHO this is a high risk project to back.
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Alexandre P.
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Xorron wrote:
i think they have playtested this a lot and will do so till next year


I think at this point all the rules should be definitive and it's not a good sign to say "well, they still have 1 year to finish the rules".
Only phrasing, clarification/FAQ should be WIP.
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Tom Eklund
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asobu wrote:
I just don't think it will be possible for MG, with all the best of intentions, to deliver this mass of plastic.

Then think again. Mythic Battles: Pantheon game is being delivered even before the promised date.. Not that I don't share some of your concerns. But they are planning a new game play video for today, we will see... It's true that just the core box has an insane amount of miniatures and the gameplay looks solid enough..
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Homo Ludens
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Xahendir wrote:
Xorron wrote:
i think they have playtested this a lot and will do so till next year


I think at this point all the rules should be definitive and it's not a good sign to say "well, they still have 1 year to finish the rules".
Only phrasing, clarification/FAQ should be WIP.


At this stage the rules should be in 90% complete state IF it had been thoroughly play tested.

The fact that we are still in Beta is concerning.

And they don't have a year to fix it. Printing has t be done some way in advance, proof read, corrected, then final print ready for packing in boxes to ship.
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Geoff ...
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I share these concerns. Still, maiden pledge is a good bet, and that Apoc box wow they're brave to go there. Will def pick that up.
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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The only thing that bothers me is how they are dealing with the updates. They are constantly late and regularly post the updates after midnight. Right now the new stretch goal has not been announced as they are all probably still sleeping. I know that is a lot of work but if u cant manage it on ur own u should hire a community manager for the duration of campaign, its a 2mil project after all!

It would have been wise to skip a day in the worst case and get back on track but now it is too late.
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Alexandre P.
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asobu wrote:
And they don't have a year to fix it.


Yes, I meant "the delivery is due in one year".

Avtomatik wrote:
regularly post the updates after midnight.


I assumed they were working at the American hours.
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Conan Schmidt
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What a nonsense!
At the end of the life Leo always answers questions, if you stayed longer than 1hour you would have sawn this.
And how dare you are thinking they have not playtested the Apokalypse? They have tons of painted wallpainings and all minitures in 3D. They had enough time to test this addon and set up the cards for the models.
And now they do have enough time left for fine tuning the rules (that are already drawn on paper)
Sry, but I think this thread is so much fake new!
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Conan Schmidt
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Avtomatik wrote:
The only thing that bothers me is how they are dealing with the updates. They are constantly late and regularly post the updates after midnight.


Are you really saying this? Wow I wish there were more companies "late" like MB. Most companies are weeks late not hours.
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Igor Persin
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Avtomatik wrote:
The only thing that bothers me is how they are dealing with the updates. They are constantly late and regularly post the updates after midnight. Right now the new stretch goal has not been announced as they are all probably still sleeping. I know that is a lot of work but if u cant manage it on ur own u should hire a community manager for the duration of campaign, its a 2mil project after all!

It would have been wise to skip a day in the worst case and get back on track but now it is too late.


Well, new streach goal is up on site. They haven't done update yet as an update, but you can see what it is, more awesome cavlary! Yea, they don't reveal them same minute that funds reach it, but can you blame them for that? They probably don't have someone 24/7 watchin it.
 
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Patrick van Gompel
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asobu wrote:
Xahendir wrote:
Xorron wrote:
i think they have playtested this a lot and will do so till next year


I think at this point all the rules should be definitive and it's not a good sign to say "well, they still have 1 year to finish the rules".
Only phrasing, clarification/FAQ should be WIP.


At this stage the rules should be in 90% complete state IF it had been thoroughly play tested.

The fact that we are still in Beta is concerning.


Could you please explain why you think that the rules should be definitive? I mean, I like the fact that this kickstarter is not a 'pre-order' of a 100% complete game. I like it when backers are involved in the whole process.
The core rules are rather definitive I think. The unit stats probably less so (especially those not in the core box). But, since the unit costs are not on the cards, there is always room to fine tune them. As for the scenarios: the ones in the base game are of course more played and tested than the newest that were added. Personally, I like it that they do not just add miniatures as SGs but scenarios as well. Well tested added SG scenarios would mean they were definitively planned and would make less sense as a SG I think. They should have been in the core box as they could otherwise be a waste of resources.

Why does it concern you that 'we are still in beta'. I am glad there is still room to improve the final product. If they were not in beta: what's the point in us discussing the rules for example, other than making your own houserules?

Though, I do get your point. For example: the CMoN (Zombicide) kickstarters are rather different from this one. What CMoN presents at the start of the kickstarter is more definite and you are probably right in saying that you are taking less 'risk'. But for me, I like this kickstarter much more and also others in which the designers both show dedication/enthusiasm about their product and leave more option for backers to get involved.
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Trent Y.
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asobu wrote:
Well this campaign seems to be a car designed by Homer Simpson. I just don't think it will be possible for MG, with all the best of intentions, to deliver this mass of plastic. The game itself is a fine little skirmish game with an emphasis on narrative story scenarios. It has become a bloated mass of plastic.

Leo spending 3 hours talking about nothing last night when he should have been sorting out the update raised a big red flag for me. I think the team has got lost, not focusing on the core game and making that great, and instead just adding more and more stuff. I left after an hour because it was clear he had noting to say about the Apocalypse update.


I guess we all end up seeing what we want to see.

Mythic Battles threw in WAY more content that I thought they were going to. However, they had their original version to base a lot of those things on and it was very well designed (the original). One of my favourite games. So they had a very solid starting platform and worked with that. Then they just added more and more and more! It was amazing and will have insane replayability.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt with Time of Legends.

You say that they have lost focus, where as I see each update as "this was planned very carefully from the beginning".

You see a bloat of miniatures, whereas I see crazy amounts of replayability.

Regardless, you seem to have a plan that makes you comfortable. So, I'm not sure what you want out of this post. Are you looking to be convinced otherwise or just chewing the fat with other gamers?
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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smurfORnot wrote:


Well, new streach goal is up on site. They haven't done update yet as an update, but you can see what it is, more awesome cavlary! Yea, they don't reveal them same minute that funds reach it, but can you blame them for that? They probably don't have someone 24/7 watchin it.


Cavalry is good. But that is exactly my point, for a campaign like this, they NEED to have someone watching 24/7, like CMON does. It makes the campaign have a more steady rhythm, people are more excited as they know when will they see what is the next SG, and in the end it pays off in the increased funding. Its just good business practice

Xahendir wrote:
Avtomatik wrote:
regularly post the updates after midnight.


I assumed they were working at the American hours.


Nah they are France based.

turbotix wrote:
Avtomatik wrote:
The only thing that bothers me is how they are dealing with the updates. They are constantly late and regularly post the updates after midnight.


Are you really saying this? Wow I wish there were more companies "late" like MB. Most companies are weeks late not hours.


Other companies being worse doesn't mean that they should not try to be better.
 
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Martin Gallo
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asobu wrote:
Demo games are not playtesting. If you don't know the difference then you don't know game design.
Just out of curiosity, how many games have you either designed, produced or published?

I know a couple of game designers and they use demos as part of their play testing to help understand how to teach and/or present the game. (I am not stating that there is only one method for the process nor that I am an expert.)

I do agree that adding game elements might be problematical, but since I am not part of the design process for this game I cannot state definitively that they have not been incorporated adequately.
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Team Ski
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Gompel wrote:

Could you please explain why you think that the rules should be definitive? I mean, I like the fact that this kickstarter is not a 'pre-order' of a 100% complete game. I like it when backers are involved in the whole process.


This kickstarter IS a preorder, just one of an incomplete game. Let's not mince words here. JoC is as much of a preorder as any other big box game being released by a game company. JOC should have had most of the rules sorted out by now ESPECIALLY because of the lead time in producing components and getting the rules, cards, markers, scenarios, etc, etc, etc done. I am still on the fence only because I am currently enamored with the Siege expansion. However, I think the game system might very well implode from trying to rush new untested rules into the rule book in attempts to get it out in some semblance of a reasonable time frame.

Trust me, backers will not be involved with the rules. Too many opinions, too many demands.......

-Ski
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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I am avoiding this one... we'll see soon enough if it was a bullet dodged or a missed opportunity.
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Patrick van Gompel
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Teamski wrote:
Gompel wrote:

Could you please explain why you think that the rules should be definitive? I mean, I like the fact that this kickstarter is not a 'pre-order' of a 100% complete game. I like it when backers are involved in the whole process.


This kickstarter IS a preorder, just one of an incomplete game. Let's not mince words here. JoC is as much of a preorder as any other big box game being released by a game company. JOC should have had pretty much had the rules sorted out by now ESPECIALLY because of the lead time in producing components and getting the rules, cards, markers, scenarios, etc, etc, etc done. I am still on the fence only because I am currently enamored with the Siege expansion. However, I think the game system might very well implode from trying to rush new untested rules into the rule book in attempts to get it out in some semblance of reasonable time frame.

Trust me, backers will not be involved with the rules. Too many opinions, too many demands.......

-Ski


Not sure what you are on about, pre-order or not... I have no intention to argue about words.
And I don't trust you. I have been involved before with rules in other kickstarters, so I am not dreaming. And it is not about demands in my view. It's is their game and their call how to design it, but I can give my feedback without a demand. Constructive feedback is what evolves a game. But I agree, demands go into all sorts of crazy directions and it scares me.
 
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Team Ski
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Gompel wrote:
Teamski wrote:
Gompel wrote:

Could you please explain why you think that the rules should be definitive? I mean, I like the fact that this kickstarter is not a 'pre-order' of a 100% complete game. I like it when backers are involved in the whole process.


This kickstarter IS a preorder, just one of an incomplete game. Let's not mince words here. JoC is as much of a preorder as any other big box game being released by a game company. JOC should have had pretty much had the rules sorted out by now ESPECIALLY because of the lead time in producing components and getting the rules, cards, markers, scenarios, etc, etc, etc done. I am still on the fence only because I am currently enamored with the Siege expansion. However, I think the game system might very well implode from trying to rush new untested rules into the rule book in attempts to get it out in some semblance of reasonable time frame.

Trust me, backers will not be involved with the rules. Too many opinions, too many demands.......

-Ski


Not sure what you are on about, pre-order or not... I have no intention to argue about words.
And I don't trust you. I have been involved before with rules in other kickstarters, so I am not dreaming. And it is not about demands in my view. It's is their game and their call how to design it, but I can give my feedback without a demand. Constructive feedback is what evolves a game. But I agree, demands go into all sorts of crazy directions and it scares me.


Trust.....an interesting term. You can check my profile and I have been around for a while. I'm not going to stalk you, if that is what you are worrying about. ninja

-Ski
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Max Maloney
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"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason." -Jack Handey
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My concern is opposite the OP.

I think this ruleset is smooth, polished and playtested... but looks boring. The combat system is literally “Roll dice, count hits/oocs/flees, roll defense, cancel attack results.” It is a super basic system. So why should we buy another game of this type over something like a Commands & Colors game? Where is the unique strategy and gameplay? I’m afraid it won’t be there.

The only thing that seems to make the gameplay unique here is scenario design. They are pushing the notion of a large number of scenarios with heavily varied objectives and challenges; this is cool! But I’d like the mechanisms of moving and fighting to be much more original.
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Ben Clapperton
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They have a community manager. He's likely on the comments right now. Leo said on the live last night that the graphic designers were working on the update whilst he was on the live and he would finish it to join in as soon as they were ready for him. Every update they've revealed has been planned from before the campaign. They've intentionally not added any to keep the all-in price down. They committed to equally as much content with MBP and have delivered early. I believe they've even said they have a playtest room at the studio which is constantly in use.
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Igor Persin
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This would me more of my concern ,people like this:

Quote:

Jason
@Hoodakey, actually it does make it wrong. Because it's my faith, my God, my opinion.

Edward nailed it on the sacredness of Christ and not a toy. There's a word for that kind of crap. Especially in a battle game where you can "kill Christ".


Quote:

Jason about 3 hours ago

For some reason people seem to think the problem some of us have with this expansion is the depiction. It's actually the fact that you made God into a killable unit in a board game. It's not only offensive it's disrespectful of someone else's religion and for that reason I not only am pulling out but telling my friends to do likewise. Some can talk about house rules blah blah. I surely won't play in a game where organized play features this crap or the ability for my religion's devil to defeat my religion's God and savior. Enjoy your cheap jokes at Christianity's expense, your marketing gimmick at Christianity's expense, and I hope that you someday realize the error in your judgement. Pun not intended..
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