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Subject: Looks like spacey incident was tip of iceberg. rss

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Mac Mcleod
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Obviously presumed innocent until guilty in terms of a trial and things like that however many people are coming out saying he's been acting inappropriately including with underage boys as recently as last year.

You can stick a fork in him socially and it may cost him a lot of money and even the risk of jail time.

Powerful people really need some kind of an assistant to protect them from themselves. Billy Graham had people who protected him from himself.
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Chad Ellis
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When a bunch of people are accusing someone of sexual assault and they say they are "seeking treatment" then I'd say that innocent until proven guilty can be relegated to an actual criminal trial.
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Chris M
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I think if it's just one person, there's some leeway in these accusations potentially of being false, but by the time you get to Harvey Weinstein numbers or at least 5 that I've heard about accusing Kevin Spacey it's a pretty shut in case that they did it. It's amazing that it's taken this long for these types of incidents to be brought up but it's not something easy to bring up especially when it can harm your career. Ever since Weinstein there's been an explosion of accusations coming out.

I'm not so sure about Corey Feldman needing a 10 million GoFundMe to make a movie based on the Hollywood pedophile problem, but hats off to him and people like Rose McGowan for coming forward with their sexual assaults to make sure these types are getting called out and in some ways blacklisted for their twisted behaviors.
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Shawn Fox
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I withheld judgement after the first accusation, but at this point I believe he is certainly guilty of sexual assault. He might never lose a court case or even be dragged into court over it, but his acting career is probably done, as it should be. Netflix has already shown him the door.
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J.D. Hall
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I know this is an awful way to look at it...but I'm an awful, awful man.

It's not like the "casting couch" stories just popped up in February. Those were old stories when I was a kid, and evidently was basically SOP in the Hollywood movie industry. I don't dismiss the pain and suffering people experienced at the hands of movie moguls, but they couldn't have been so naïve that they didn't expect something like this.

Now, and this is why it's awful, everyone else, they couldn't have seen it coming (no pun intended) and there is no hesitation in my empathy for them. Powerful men in government, corporate offices, and running businesses have been basically raping people -- mainly women -- for decades. It's time we stomped on those assholes like we stomp on roaches.
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Scott O'Brien
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if anyone is naïve enough to believe that the entire film/television industry isn't all about trading sexual favors for career advancement you are delusional.

in an environment like that, this is bound to happen frequently.
I'm not saying tis right, but its been an accepted part of the culture since the late 1950s.
 
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After watching K-PAX, I felt Kevin Spacey touched me inappropriately.
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sao123 wrote:
if anyone is naïve enough to believe that the entire film/television industry isn't all about trading sexual favors for career advancement you are delusional.

in an environment like that, this is bound to happen frequently.
I'm not saying tis right, but its been an accepted part of the culture since the late 1950s.


Yay for sexual assault apologies!
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Mac Mcleod
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sao123 wrote:
if anyone is naïve enough to believe that the entire film/television industry isn't all about trading sexual favors for career advancement you are delusional.

in an environment like that, this is bound to happen frequently.
I'm not saying tis right, but its been an accepted part of the culture since the late 1950s.


And it is apparently no longer acceptable.
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William Boykin
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So here is the question that keeps popping up in my head....

Whats the relationship between the shitty artist and thier art?

Should I feel a roral twinge if I watch a Miramax film or eventually get back to House of Cards? Can I, should I, be able to divorce the brillance of Dostoevsky and his awful treatment of his wife?

Is there a moral obligation on the audience in respect to art created by a shitty artist? I mean, I really really enjoy Spacey as an actor, and some of my favorite movies are Weistein productions. But yet, I know my money helped abet thier actions, and provided cover for their behavior. Sure Harvey's a womanizing jerk but look at his movies and his Oscars!! Look at Polanski's Chinatown. Spacey and American Beauty.

What is my moral obligation here? I used to want to say I had none, because if we only consumed the art of saints there wouldnt be much to watch on Friday night. But Weinstein and Spacey's actions make me feel so....squick....for being fans of their art, Im horribly conflicted. I love the art, but want nothing to do with the artist. Thats easy with Dostoyevsky; hes dead. What to do with a living artist, who us getting monetary rewards for art created while being a horrible human being?

Darilian
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Rachel Simmons
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sao123 wrote:
I'm not saying tis right, but its been an accepted part of the culture since the late 1950s.

Never accepted by the victims, I dare say. Being blackmailed into silence is not acceptance.
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Shawn Fox
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Darilian wrote:
Whats the relationship between the shitty artist and thier art?

Usual Suspects and American Beauty are great movies and as I already own copies of them I'll certainly watch them again at some point in the future. I'd say it is perfectly reasonable to react by refusing to purchase products that will result in putting money in the pockets of know scumbags. Fortunately there are other options when it comes to movies.
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Mac Mcleod
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Almost certainly accepted by some who had no problems with sleeping their way to the top and enjoy the advantage it gave them over their competition.

I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm just saying that it's the reality of things.


 
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Rachel Simmons
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Darilian wrote:
Whats the relationship between the shitty artist and their art?

For me, it is whether I can move past the artist to the art. In some cases I can, in others I cannot.

I can't watch any Woody Allen movie any more. I found Manhattan uncomfortable viewing even at the time, and knowing what I now know of him it is simply intolerable. His art takes its cues strongly from his personality, and his personality is a horror.
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Rachel Simmons
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maxo-texas wrote:
I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm just saying that it's the reality of things.

There is no possible evil to which that does not apply. I don't understand where you're going with this.
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Chris M
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bowen wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Whats the relationship between the shitty artist and their art?

For me, it is whether I can move past the artist to the art. In some cases I can, in others I cannot.

I can't watch any Woody Allen movie any more. I found Manhattan uncomfortable viewing even at the time, and knowing what I know now of him it is simply intolerable. His art takes its cues strongly from his personality, and his personality is a horror.


It really does feel hard to say, for me I feel fine with Michael Jackson music whenever it pops up, but do have similar feelings about Woody Allen and purposely choose not to watch any of Roman Polanski stuff because of what has been alleged or done.
 
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Rachel Simmons
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maxo-texas wrote:
Almost certainly accepted by some who had no problems with sleeping their way to the top

Which relates to those victims who suffered in traumatized silence in what way?
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Mac Mcleod
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bowen wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Whats the relationship between the shitty artist and their art?

For me, it is whether I can move past the artist to the art. In some cases I can, in others I cannot.

I can't watch any Woody Allen movie any more. I found Manhattan uncomfortable viewing even at the time, and knowing what I know now of him it is simply intolerable. His art takes its cues strongly from his personality, and his personality is a horror.


Yup. I agree. Cruise is a loon and I dislike him for attacking pregnant women. But edge of tomorrow was still okay. It matters to me if their foul undercuts their screen image some too but not a problem for rock Hudson but is a problem for Neil Patrick harris playing a womanizer. But not a problem for him playing Dr horrible or the psionic in starship troopers.

I have an issue with Mel Gibson but not as big as it might be because he was drunk and in pain when he said terrible things.

There is that guy in prison.. sizemore? Probably not up for him. And o.j. is right out. Cant watch his old stuff.

More abstract for composers, painters, and sculptors. Their work is not them. Actors work is them.

Allen would bother me in some works but not as director or producer.

Another issue is movies are collaborations. More people, less direct connection, and more likely at least one person will be a problem. Do you scratch anything Allen ever had to do with? What if he wrote some jokes?

What if they go to prison and do their time? Like snipes, Bob Denver and presumably Sizemore at some point?
 
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Mac Mcleod
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bowen wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Almost certainly accepted by some who had no problems with sleeping their way to the top

Which relates to those victims who suffered in traumatized silence in what way?


Quick reading of your post skipped over your limitation to only victims.

My point was not all who had traded sexual favors for jobs were victims. Some were active participants.

I completely agree with yer post with the limitations to victims.
 
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Rachel Simmons
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maxo-texas wrote:
Do you scratch anything Allen ever had to do with? What if he wrote some jokes?

I don't have a rule per se about Allen. It is not a rational process of calculation. For me, it is about how I emotionally react on encountering the art, and even I don't necessarily know in advance what that reaction will be.

In Woody Allen's case, because he is alive, unpunished, even feted, my anger is constantly being refreshed.
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Mac Mcleod
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bowen wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Do you scratch anything Allen ever had to do with? What if he wrote some jokes?

I don't have a rule per se about Allen. It is not a rational process of calculation. For me, it is about how I emotionally react on encountering the art, and even I don't necessarily know in advance what that reaction will be.

In Woody Allen's case, because he is alive, unpunished, even feted, my anger is constantly being refreshed.


Yeah, as you can tell from my ramble above I don't have a rule either.
 
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Darilian wrote:
So here is the question that keeps popping up in my head....

Whats the relationship between the shitty artist and thier art?

Should I feel a roral twinge if I watch a Miramax film or eventually get back to House of Cards? Can I, should I, be able to divorce the brillance of Dostoevsky and his awful treatment of his wife?

Is there a moral obligation on the audience in respect to art created by a shitty artist? I mean, I really really enjoy Spacey as an actor, and some of my favorite movies are Weistein productions. But yet, I know my money helped abet thier actions, and provided cover for their behavior. Sure Harvey's a womanizing jerk but look at his movies and his Oscars!! Look at Polanski's Chinatown. Spacey and American Beauty.

What is my moral obligation here? I used to want to say I had none, because if we only consumed the art of saints there wouldnt be much to watch on Friday night. But Weinstein and Spacey's actions make me feel so....squick....for being fans of their art, Im horribly conflicted. I love the art, but want nothing to do with the artist. Thats easy with Dostoyevsky; hes dead. What to do with a living artist, who us getting monetary rewards for art created while being a horrible human being?

Darilian


The Usual Suspects was a favorite of mine, but I don't think I could watch it again. I have no desire to ever watch House of Cards again even if it wasn't canceled now.

But old Polanski films? For whatever reason, not seeing the guy on screen makes it easier. I don't think I would spend money on any of his films though.
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Scott O'Brien
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Sue_G wrote:
sao123 wrote:
if anyone is naïve enough to believe that the entire film/television industry isn't all about trading sexual favors for career advancement you are delusional.

in an environment like that, this is bound to happen frequently.
I'm not saying tis right, but its been an accepted part of the culture since the late 1950s.


Yay for sexual assault apologies!


no-one is apologizing for anything...
and no-one should be victimized, but victims must share their share of the blame.

Not everyone who traded favors in a backroom is is a victim, likewise there were equally many sexual entrepreneurs. if a willing consenting adult accepts trading sexual advancements for career advancements, who are you to judge? That is not sexual assault.

With the known current culture of that particular industry, its literally impossible to have an expectation that you were going to go into it and not have to "trade favors" now and then....

Was not that the whole point of the feminine sexual revolution in the 50s and 60s? Sex is the concern of the 2 people involved and no-one else? Its my body and i'll sleep with who I want, where I want, when I want, why I want, and how i want?
If I use my body to advance my career, thats my business, and only my business?

Having that knowledge, i would say those who aren't kosher with trading favors should have went into a different industry.
 
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sao123 wrote:


no-one is apologizing for anything...
and no-one should be victimized, but victims must share their share of the blame.



Uh, what? No one should be victimized, but we should blame victims?

sao123 wrote:


Not everyone who traded favors in a backroom is is a victim, likewise there were equally many sexual entrepreneurs. if a willing consenting adult accepts trading sexual advancements for career advancements, who are you to judge? That is not sexual assault.



Uh, okay. So you didn't mean victims should shoulder blame because some people in this situation aren't victims. Got it. I'm sure there probably are people who willingly did that. I think you should be pretty careful about assuming you know which are which when a huge power imbalance is involved.

Moreover, the stories about Spacey (you know; the thread you're in?) didn't involve your happy-go-lucky willing participants. No worries though, I'm pretty much used to threads about things like sexual harassment being feeding grounds for people who want to talk about either (a) sluts that sleep their way to the top; or (b) lying whores. Not that you went that far (yet), but it's normally how these threads cycle to the bottom.

sao123 wrote:


With the known current culture of that particular industry, its literally impossible to have an expectation that you were going to go into it and not have to "trade favors" now and then....

Was not that the whole point of the feminine sexual revolution in the 50s and 60s? Sex is the concern of the 2 people involved and no-one else? Its my body and i'll sleep with who I want, where I want, when I want, why I want, and how i want?
If I use my body to advance my career, thats my business, and only my business?

Having that knowledge, i would say those who aren't kosher with trading favors should have went into a different industry.


And right there is where you went into the deep murky end of the pool. You are essentially saying that these women and men are to blame for being harassed because they should have known to expect it.
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Rachel Simmons
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Sue_G wrote:
sao123 wrote:

and no-one should be victimized, but victims must share their share of the blame.

Uh, what? No one should be victimized, but we should blame victims?

One seldom sees victim blaming put forward in quite so straightforward a manner.
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