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Pericles: The Peloponnesian Wars» Forums » Rules

Subject: Athens base in Sparta & granary surrender rss

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Mark Pinner
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According to 11.13, if Athens lacks a base in a granary theater for a whole turn, Athens surrenders (I'm not quoting that as it is very clear).

As is also very clear, Sparta is a granary theater. Therefore, if Athens has a base in Sparta, even if Athens loses control of Hellespont and doesn't have either Eastern Med or Sicily, Athens will not surrender. Is this really intended? Is Athens getting the grain they need from a base in Sparta?

I note the play note to 11.13 which says:

Quote:
Play Note: You will note that Sparta is a granary designated Theater. For all practical purposes this is for historical context since if Sparta has no bases in a granary theater they would have already suffered an automatic defeat for losing Sparta making application of this rule moot.


Is this implication of this to ignore the Spartan granary? It sounds a little like a leftover of a rule to say that neither side can be without a granary??

Can anyone clarify and, if the rule is correct as written, explain the justification?

PS Thank you for this amazing game!
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Philip Jelley
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Marcus Antonius wrote:
According to 11.13, if Athens lacks a base in a granary theater for a whole turn, Athens surrenders (I'm not quoting that as it is very clear).

As is also very clear, Sparta is a granary theater. Therefore, if Athens has a base in Sparta, even if Athens loses control of Hellespont and doesn't have either Eastern Med or Sicily, Athens will not surrender. Is this really intended? Is Athens getting the grain they need from a base in Sparta?

I note the play note to 11.13 which says:

Quote:
Play Note: You will note that Sparta is a granary designated Theater. For all practical purposes this is for historical context since if Sparta has no bases in a granary theater they would have already suffered an automatic defeat for losing Sparta making application of this rule moot.


Is this implication of this to ignore the Spartan granary? It sounds a little like a leftover of a rule to say that neither side can be without a granary??

Can anyone clarify and, if the rule is correct as written, explain the justification?

PS Thank you for this amazing game!


It is a rule you ignore. I think the designers thought it odd that Sparta could ignore the Granary Rules, or that it had no Granary, but as they pointed out other rules make it redundant.
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Mark Pinner
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Thanks, but you seem to be addressing whether the Sparta space is a (redundant) granary for Sparta. However my point is that by the rules, it seems to be a deemed a granary for Athens i.e historically, a fort at Pylos. Should we ignore this too? While it sounds very odd, the text of the rule seems pretty clear ...
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BrentS
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Marcus Antonius wrote:
Thanks, but you seem to be addressing whether the Sparta space is a (redundant) granary for Sparta. However my point is that by the rules, it seems to be a deemed a granary for Athens i.e historically, a fort at Pylos. Should we ignore this too? While it sounds very odd, the text of the rule seems pretty clear ...


This is a very interesting situation I hadn't considered.

Mark would be the final arbiter on this but I would say that by the letter of the rules, a Delian League / Athenian base in Sparta would count for Athens' granary survival requirement.....although if Sparta has taken all the others and they're depending on grain supply from the enemy's fields I suspect Athens is in big trouble

Thematically, I can see Athenians fortifying the passes through the Megarid and receiving Spartan grain from rebellious Messenian helots, only too willing to help the enemy of their enslavers. There is precedent for it, too, as you've pointed out. Although not directly linked to grain supply, Pylos was a sanctuary for Messenian renegades, as was Naupactus, both established within the Spartan sphere of influence as a serious challenge to them in terms of morale and their strategic position. And within the next century Thebes went one further and established an entire city, Megalopolis (two League bases!), right in Laconia, for the liberated Messenians......an ultimately permanent crippling of Spartan power and influence.

Brent.

 
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Joel Tamburo
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No, the base in Sparta does count. All the extra text is saying is that a granary condition is not needed for Sparta because Sparta itself is a granary - so if as the Spartan you lack a base in Sparta you lose anyway.
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Mark Pinner
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@Brent, Joel,

That is my interpretation too, although it feels a little strange.

I would also like to see Mark Herman's judgement and explanation.

Thanks all


Mark
 
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Peter Varholak
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From my point of understanding the rule 11.13 Athenian Granaries is written very clear. Sparta is a Granary theater for the purposes of Victory determination before end of scenario. In case Athens does not have any base in 3 "more obvious" Granaries (Hellespont, Sicily, Eastern Mediterranean) it can still survive the turn if it has at least 1 base in Sparta.
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Correct. Herman's comment is just that this is an unusual situation because Athens is really out on a limb there as Sparta can easily mass troops for a land battle and wipe out Athens. It's a desperation move really.

As regards Sparta the comment on a granary theater being somewhat immaterial for Sparta is because Sparta is granary theater and if you lose your last base you lose control of Sparta and lose the game anyway. Basically Sparta can't survive by having a base on a different granary theater and NOT control Sparta itself. That's why the rule is moot for Sparta, it doesn't mean you don't apply the rule it's just that in all situations where Sparta has no granary theater Sparta also lost control of Sparta which is an automatic defeat.

He's just describing the dynamics of the situation once you apply the rules. It's a Play Note; not an actual rule.
 
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Mark Pinner
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Agreed, although the base could still be secured by an Athenian naval unit, (although tricky given that in this scenario they would have already lost all other granaries and sparta can build naval units there and battle immediately).

My query is because Sparta is not an obvious 'granary' for Athens per history (although I appreciate Brent's explanation).

Hence I would still appreciate Mark's explanation too.

Thanks all.

 
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