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Twilight Imperium: Fourth Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: The Embers of Muaat and Publicize Weapon Schematics rss

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David Holman
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So, last time we played TI4 we ran into a peculiar question that the rules (which have answered most questions we've had actually) didn't answer.

If someone plays The Embers of Muaat they start with Prototype War Sun I, does this count as a "war sun technology" or not?

The law Publicize Weapon Schematics reads as follows:
"For: If any player own a war sun technology, all players may ignore all prerequisites on war sun technologies. All war suns lose SUSTAIN DAMAGE.
Against: Each player that owns a war sun technology discards all of his action cards."

Does anyone own a war sun tech or not in this scenario?
We said yes because the it's a war sun tech, it didn't say "war sun technology upgrade" or something like that.

Love to hear input, did we miss anything in the rules that we can't find or will this be in the inevitable errata/FAQ?
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John Drake
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As all references to “technologies” in the Rules Reference and Learn to Play seem to refer to technology *cards* including the racial and starting techs, and whereas the units on the faction sheets are exclusively refered to as “units”, my initial reaction would be that the Muaat Prototype War Sun I does not count as a “technology.”

But I could be wrong...?
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David Holman
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AgentDrake wrote:
As all references to “technologies” in the Rules Reference and Learn to Play seem to refer to technology *cards* including the racial and starting techs, and whereas the units on the faction sheets are exclusively refered to as “units”, my initial reaction would be that the Muaat Prototype War Sun I does not count as a “technology.”

But I could be wrong...?


It's tricky IMO and a clarification from the creators would be much appreciated. But in the mean time I'll settle for you lot cool
 
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Scott Lewis
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I'm trying to find the email I got, but I did get something from Dane that basically said that the stuff pre-printed on the sheets are NOT technologies, even Prototype War Sun I. It cannot be copied by Nekro Virus' Valefar Assimilators, for instance, and if they have not upgraded to Prototype War Sun II, they would not be affected by the "Against" part of this law. They also do not count as techs for things like objectives, either.
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Andy Day

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AgentDrake wrote:
As all references to “technologies” in the Rules Reference and Learn to Play seem to refer to technology *cards* including the racial and starting techs, and whereas the units on the faction sheets are exclusively refered to as “units”, my initial reaction would be that the Muaat Prototype War Sun I does not count as a “technology.”

But I could be wrong...?

I think this is absolutely correct. Legalistically speaking.

Though, if you vote “for” this law, the Muaat Suns would lose Sustain Damage , even if they lack the tech.
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Soul_ wrote:
Does anyone own a war sun tech or not in this scenario?
We said yes because the it's a war sun tech, it didn't say "war sun technology upgrade" or something like that.

Love to hear input, did we miss anything in the rules that we can't find or will this be in the inevitable errata/FAQ?


Personally, I think the key word here is "own", which is a key term in reference to technology in the TI4 RR under 79.1 (emphasis made by FFG, not me):

Quote:
79 TECHNOLOGY

Technology cards allow players to
upgrade units and acquire powerful
abilities.

79.1 Each player places any
technologies he has gained faceup
near his faction sheet. He owns
those cards for the duration of the
game and can use their abilities.


I agree this is more vague than preferred, but my interpretation is the Muaat does not 'own' that technology as it is not a technology they have gained (in any way); War Sun Prototype is innate to their faction. No more would I consider "Infantry I" to be an "owned" technology. Basically, the way this reads to me is that "owning" a tech means you "own" that tech *card*.

Taking a step back, ruling that this agenda can affect the Muaat per se (in other words, the agenda affects games where only the Muaat has War Suns thusfar) could be pretty devastating for the Muaat, particularly if it were drawn early, as BOTH the For and Against effects would be an automatic lashing for the Muaat. And since the early WS is the Muaat's key advantage, that makes this more than just a setback for them. To me this would make for very unsatisfying gameplay, even if Muaat is my opponent.

This being said I agree it would be comforting for clarification but in the meantime I think we'll be sticking to a slightly more generous interpretation of the rules for the Muaat player. But if even a single player owns that tech, then of course the Muaat has to deal with the consequences and should plan accordingly. Hopefully by that point, though, the Muaat has had a chance to leverage his early WS to diversify away from that single WS being basically their only strategic and tactical advantage; it won't be an automatic "gg" for him or her by then.
 
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Andre Oliveira
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Chromium88 wrote:
But if even a single player owns that tech, then of course the Muaat has to deal with the consequences and should plan accordingly. Hopefully by that point, though, the Muaat has had a chance to leverage his early WS to diversify away from that single WS being basically their only strategic and tactical advantage; it won't be an automatic "gg" for him or her by then.


The mursaat can upgrade his warsun using the lessened requirements in that case, no?

Worst case, the flagship and dreadnaughts can use the duranium armor.
 
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desocupado wrote:
The mursaat can upgrade his warsun using the lessened requirements in that case, no?

Worst case, the flagship and dreadnaughts can use the duranium armor.


Yeah, Muaat can upgrade. But it would still effectively eliminate their one big advantage given that Muaat's upgraded WS isn't leaps and bounds better than other WS's (well, being 2 cheaper and 1 move faster is good, but not enough to make up for everyone simultaneously getting to bypass tech requirements for WS's themselves).

Also, I found that a conversation re: preprinted being "tech" or not happened already here https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1834160/racial-technologies.... I think that ends with what appears to be a consensus about preprinted not being "technology".
 
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Scott Lewis
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Here's the email (just to confirm it's not just consensus, but official).

MY QUESTION
Do pre-printed units count as "technologies"? Specifically, does Prototype War Sun I count as a technology? I would say no. This means: - Nekro Virus cannot copy it - It does not count against the "Against" effects of Publicize Weapons Schematics - It does not count towards objectives, etc, that reference technologies. Thanks!

DANE'S ANSWER
They do not. Preprinted units do not count as technologies.
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sigmazero13 wrote:
DANE'S ANSWER
They do not. Preprinted units do not count as technologies.


Thank you for finding! I wonder if there will be more game effects that will rely on this premise that preprints are not tech; can't think of anything atm but I'm sure something will come up.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Chromium88 wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
DANE'S ANSWER
They do not. Preprinted units do not count as technologies.


Thank you for finding! I wonder if there will be more game effects that will rely on this premise that preprints are not tech; can't think of anything atm but I'm sure something will come up.

There may be others that come up, but I don't think the ruling would change. If you count Prototype War Sun I as a technology, you'd have to count ALL pre-printed units as technologies, which would mean things the refer to number of owned technologies would be affected.
 
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William Chew
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Chromium88 wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
DANE'S ANSWER
They do not. Preprinted units do not count as technologies.


Thank you for finding! I wonder if there will be more game effects that will rely on this premise that preprints are not tech; can't think of anything atm but I'm sure something will come up.


Mainly the nekro virus's racial ability although that was already mentioned. I remember this ruling from a couple months ago, because it stops nekro virus from rushing Muat for a full strength war sun technology like in TI3.
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David Holman
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Thank you all for the clarification and help. Much appreciation!
 
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