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Subject: How Do We Decrease Gun Violence? rss

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Michael Sanches
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With another mass shooting comes another (unproductive) discussion (venting) by pro/anti gun people.

But, what can actually be done?

I am convinced that the majority of both groups want less gun violence. To say otherwise is simply foolish. The problem is getting from here to there.

1. So, what actual programs, laws, etc. can we implement to decrease gun violence? Such a program has to deal with the fact that the government will/can not take guns away from all 300 million Americans.

2. Has this program been tried elsewhere and what were the results?

3. For your program, what are the drawbacks (the assumption is that you are not wearing rose colored glasses.)

4. Do to our Federalism in the United States, most laws can only be passed at the state level. How will neighboring States not implementing this program effect the results?

5. People who are forced to participate in a law or program and then injured/killed, should they compensated? This is done in England.


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Blanket statements about "gun violence" in the wake of a mass shooting tend to conflate a lot of separable issues.

The most important thing to note about mass shootings is that they are rare, and they make up only a small proportion of the total. Their occurrence is widely disseminated, not concentrated in particular areas.

Most of the gun homicide is concentrated in a small number of poor urban areas that already have strict gun control. The violence is associated with gang-activity and drug smuggling.

There are also highly publicized incidents of police shooting, often on feeble pretexts, and the total number of government-committed shootings is much larger than the number of mass shootings.

Lastly, some "gun violence" consists of people defending themselves against criminal assailants. Some of the police shootings fall in this category and others are highly questionable.
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Eric Tama
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Ban handguns.
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Michael Sanches
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Eric_Tama wrote:
Ban handguns.


The only 2 places that was true were Washington D.C. and Chicago. The cities then ended up with the highest gun murder rates.

I am looking for a solution in the opposite direction of yours. I want fewer gun crimes.

We boardgamers are used to solving puzzles and squeezing as much benefit as possible from the hands we are dealt. It seems like if anybody could come up with viable solutions to decrease gun violence, we could.
 
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Steve
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huskerdude wrote:
Eric_Tama wrote:
Ban handguns.


The only 2 places that was true were Washington D.C. and Chicago. The cities then ended up with the highest gun murder rates.

I am looking for a solution in the opposite direction of yours. I want fewer gun crimes.

We boardgamers are used to solving puzzles and squeezing as much benefit as possible from the hands we are dealt. It seems like if anybody could come up with viable solutions to decrease gun violence, we could.

But, is the high gun crime rate the effect or the cause of the law being the way it is?

maybe there was a high gun crime rate and it seemed to be rising and that was the reason for the law being put in place.

Or maybe, the law was put in place and because the people had fewer guns that caused the criminals to get bolder and this raised the gun crime rate.

Or maybe, both. Or neither.

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Australia seems to be probably the closest example to try and follow. But it's pretty much politically impossible in the US. The US is politically at the point where tiny changes in gun laws that will maybe reduce number killed in the next attack by one or two if they are lucky are the only ones possible to go for and will still be massively resisted.
 
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huskerdude wrote:
Eric_Tama wrote:
Ban handguns.


The only 2 places that was true were Washington D.C. and Chicago. The cities then ended up with the highest gun murder rates.

I am looking for a solution in the opposite direction of yours. I want fewer gun crimes.


huskerdude wrote:

4. Do to our Federalism in the United States, most laws can only be passed at the state level. How will neighboring States not implementing this program affect the results?.


+2 for smugness, though.
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Elias Någonsson
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Remove the underlying causes for a lot of the violent crimes: class inequality.

Looking at stats globally, there seems to be an extremely strong link between poverty (both relative and absolute) and violence.
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Most of the gun homicide is concentrated in a small number of poor urban areas that already have strict gun control. The violence is associated with gang-activity and drug smuggling.


I really want to know where the "80% of gun homicides are gang-related" idea came from.

For example, these blog posts:

http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/gun-stats-perspective.htm
https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/176690986
https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/23k9ju/80_of_gunr...

all quote this CDC report:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

which doesn't even contain the word 'gang'.

Chicago's police commissioner at one point said that 80% of Chicago's homicides were gang-related, but that's a very different statistic even if it's accurate and I haven't seen a study backing it up. The CDC in 2012 published stats regarding gang violence in key cities:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6103a2.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0126_gang_homicides...

These findings include that even in the five cities with the highest rates of gang violence, gang-related homicides made up less than a third of homicides. In LA and Long Beach, gang-related homicides made up 60-70% of homicides for 15-24 year olds.

The National Gang Centre estimates that about 13% of homicides in the US are gang-related:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/measuring...
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Andre
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Short answer, convince the NRA that reducing the shear number of guns on the streets will help the problem, or come up with another organization that realizes this, and fund it as well as the NRA. Basically, our politicians are currently bought off by the NRA. Discussing what can and should be done is meaningless, if one cannot push it thru Congress. Hard reality is, the NRA owns politicians at the moment, and politicians are unlikely to go against the hand that feeds them. The system is tainted, but if you can't better the system, one has to get down in the mud and roll with them.
 
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huskerdude wrote:

But, what can actually be done?

Ban the sale of all new guns and ammo. Then wait 50 years.
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General
FixNICS and fix military NICS records
Lie and Try laws and prosecutions
Make NICS available for private sales without an FFL
Improve mental health support without stigmatization and over institutionalization (easy, amirite?)

Homicides
Operation Ceasefire
Project Exile (but I am not crazy about mandatory minimums)
Reduce non-violent prison population
Drug decriminalization (especially pot)

Mass Shootings
No Notoriety campaign

Suicides
NSSF-AFSP collaboration

Accidents
Project Childsafe
More school airgun programs

 
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Something interesting about Australia that I don't see spoken about often when this sort of discussion comes up:

That old saw, "if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns" proved false after the Aussies banned guns. Why? Because the black market prices for guns skyrocketed after the ban. The figure I remember hearing was that a rifle which would sell for about a thousand dollars was now going, illegally, for thirty-four thousand dollars or more. I mean, if you can afford to blow thirty-four thousand on a single gun, you're probably not going to be holding up convenience stores, you know?
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Here's an entirely radical spitball approach.

Nationalize gun manufacturing and sales, or perhaps relegste them to non-profits. Under the second amendment require the government to ensure availability of arms to citizens at a reasonable cost. This sounds nuts on the face of it, but consider:

Remove profit motive from sales, if you want to reduce gun violence a key step is not having an entire industry devoted to pushing more guns into the hands of more people as fast as they can. It's simole self interest for them to fight to sell more and ask yourself: even with all the best programs about safety in the world, could you reduce landmine deaths by spreading more landmines across any given area?


Shift the perception of guns as a sexy/cool/power thing into a civic, duty, responsability thing. This goes somewhat hand in hand with the first part, advertising is key to sales and sex/power sell. Sex/power are not good things to tie to firearms.

Bring govefnment's role in arms regulation and sales front and center, much easier to call out if govefnment seems to be curtailing or failing to meet standards of the second amendment.

Move discussions about right and proper access to appropriate firearms into the living present rather than trying to divine what men dead 200 years would have thought about technology they had no way of knowing about.

Gut the NRA in its cirrent form, yank the big money for that political machine and leave them left filling an actually useful role. Safety outreach and watchdog group.

The *how* of all this is fraught with all kinds of troubles, but it is an interesting 'what if'?
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ohbalto wrote:
Something interesting about Australia that I don't see spoken about often when this sort of discussion comes up:

That old saw, "if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns" proved false after the Aussies banned guns. Why? Because the black market prices for guns skyrocketed after the ban. The figure I remember hearing was that a rifle which would sell for about a thousand dollars was now going, illegally, for thirty-four thousand dollars or more. I mean, if you can afford to blow thirty-four thousand on a single gun, you're probably not going to be holding up convenience stores, you know?

The countries will very strict controls and no real black markets, Australia, Japan, and the UK, have something in common. They're islands. Other countries with similar controls, such as France, are awash in black market guns.
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Derry Salewski
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Shadrach wrote:
Here's an entirely radical spitball approach.

Nationalize gun manufacturing and sales, or perhaps relegste them to non-profits. Under the second amendment require the government to ensure availability of arms to citizens at a reasonable cost. This sounds nuts on the face of it, but consider:

Remove profit motive from sales, if you want to reduce gun violence a key step is not having an entire industry devoted to pushing more guns into the hands of more people as fast as they can. It's simole self interest for them to fight to sell more and ask yourself: even with all the best programs about safety in the world, could you reduce landmine deaths by spreading more landmines across any given area?


Shift the perception of guns as a sexy/cool/power thing into a civic, duty, responsability thing. This goes somewhat hand in hand with the first part, advertising is key to sales and sex/power sell. Sex/power are not good things to tie to firearms.

Bring govefnment's role in arms regulation and sales front and center, much easier to call out if govefnment seems to be curtailing or failing to meet standards of the second amendment.

Move discussions about right and proper access to appropriate firearms into the living present rather than trying to divine what men dead 200 years would have thought about technology they had no way of knowing about.

Gut the NRA in its cirrent form, yank the big money for that political machine and leave them left filling an actually useful role. Safety outreach and watchdog group.

The *how* of all this is fraught with all kinds of troubles, but it is an interesting 'what if'?


Best answer.

 
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damiangerous wrote:
ohbalto wrote:
Something interesting about Australia that I don't see spoken about often when this sort of discussion comes up:

That old saw, "if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns" proved false after the Aussies banned guns. Why? Because the black market prices for guns skyrocketed after the ban. The figure I remember hearing was that a rifle which would sell for about a thousand dollars was now going, illegally, for thirty-four thousand dollars or more. I mean, if you can afford to blow thirty-four thousand on a single gun, you're probably not going to be holding up convenience stores, you know?

The countries will very strict controls and no real black markets, Australia, Japan, and the UK, have something in common. They're islands. Other countries with similar controls, such as France, are awash in black market guns.


Not to mention those are different countries with different standards, laws, culture, mental health, unemployment, etc. This is the same argument that people tried to use on social healthcare. Since it works in Canada, it must work here. Canada is a different country, smaller population, etc; not saying it wont work, but you cant say since one country did it, than it must work. Also, facts can be skewed. I would like ALL OF the data on gun violence in those countries. The US government says that unemployment is down in our country, but unemployment doesnt account for underemployment or people that cant collect unemployment anymore (because it only last so long). They also say the average salary for a two person family is around 50k a year. Rich/wealthy people are a lot more rich than you think, so they bring this statistic up way more than it should be. 26 bucks an hour is normal wages? shake
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spoon wrote:
huskerdude wrote:

But, what can actually be done?

Ban the sale of all new guns and ammo. Then wait 50 years.
]

You "could" ban ammo sales, though it would be very tough. But, banning guns is a clear violation of the 2nd amendment by state and federal governments.
 
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Joe Pruitt
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End the war on drugs. This is possibly the single greatest thing we could do to improve our country, even for people who don't use drugs.
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Shadrach wrote:
Here's an entirely radical spitball approach.

Nationalize gun manufacturing and sales, or perhaps relegste them to non-profits. Under the second amendment require the government to ensure availability of arms to citizens at a reasonable cost. This sounds nuts on the face of it, but consider:

Remove profit motive from sales, if you want to reduce gun violence a key step is not having an entire industry devoted to pushing more guns into the hands of more people as fast as they can. It's simole self interest for them to fight to sell more and ask yourself: even with all the best programs about safety in the world, could you reduce landmine deaths by spreading more landmines across any given area?


Shift the perception of guns as a sexy/cool/power thing into a civic, duty, responsability thing. This goes somewhat hand in hand with the first part, advertising is key to sales and sex/power sell. Sex/power are not good things to tie to firearms.

Bring govefnment's role in arms regulation and sales front and center, much easier to call out if govefnment seems to be curtailing or failing to meet standards of the second amendment.

Move discussions about right and proper access to appropriate firearms into the living present rather than trying to divine what men dead 200 years would have thought about technology they had no way of knowing about.

Gut the NRA in its cirrent form, yank the big money for that political machine and leave them left filling an actually useful role. Safety outreach and watchdog group.

The *how* of all this is fraught with all kinds of troubles, but it is an interesting 'what if'?


I laugh whenever I see people solely blame the NRA or gun producers. No mention of the pharmaceutical industry? They have killed/profited way more than guns could hope for. Hospitals and medical staff are to blame for to. I believe they are number 2 or 3 when it comes to death in the US through negligence or carelessness. Quit unknowingly glorifying these shooters, like the media does. Im surprised they didnt try to blame video games, like they did in the 90's. Fixing the morals/mindset in this country, I believe, will help cub gun violence. There is a reason why this didnt happen all the time 30+ years ago; despite guns being the same back than.

The media is strongly to blame by giving too much air time to these losers, and by constantly baiting people. There really is not much unbiased journalism anymore. Also, mental health laws arent being followed enough in this country, do them appropriately. Same thing for gun laws through penalties, severely fine people by whatever means to people who dont follow procedures for gun sales. We dont need more gun laws, we need to enforce them/

Talk to Chicago about how they are loving their gun bans. I am sure Congress is holding a lot of gun violence in for away from the public for a reason (profit). So, I would have to have all the data in hand to make more judgements, but with whats reported, this is the way to go imo.

Also, all this texting and anti-social behavior doesnt help much either. We keep on becoming more and more antisocial as a society as society advances, it is clearly showing. People are ruder than ever, numerous cant carry on meaningful conversations in person (because they arent use to it, live in a fantasy land (where text lingo is believed to be proper words), and could go on a lot! I despise smartphones, only good thing about them is the price app, which could have been made without them existing.
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Jhogun wrote:
End the war on drugs. This is possibly the single greatest thing we could do to improve our country, even for people who don't use drugs.


Come now, you know the media has to have a scapegoat.
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Here's an entirely radical spitball approach.

Nationalize gun manufacturing and sales, or perhaps relegste them to non-profits. Under the second amendment require the government to ensure availability of arms to citizens at a reasonable cost. This sounds nuts on the face of it, but consider:

Remove profit motive from sales, if you want to reduce gun violence a key step is not having an entire industry devoted to pushing more guns into the hands of more people as fast as they can. It's simole self interest for them to fight to sell more and ask yourself: even with all the best programs about safety in the world, could you reduce landmine deaths by spreading more landmines across any given area?


Shift the perception of guns as a sexy/cool/power thing into a civic, duty, responsability thing. This goes somewhat hand in hand with the first part, advertising is key to sales and sex/power sell. Sex/power are not good things to tie to firearms.

Bring govefnment's role in arms regulation and sales front and center, much easier to call out if govefnment seems to be curtailing or failing to meet standards of the second amendment.

Move discussions about right and proper access to appropriate firearms into the living present rather than trying to divine what men dead 200 years would have thought about technology they had no way of knowing about.

Gut the NRA in its cirrent form, yank the big money for that political machine and leave them left filling an actually useful role. Safety outreach and watchdog group.

The *how* of all this is fraught with all kinds of troubles, but it is an interesting 'what if'?


I laugh whenever I see people solely blame the NRA or gun producers. No mention of the pharmaceutical industry? They have killed/profited way more than guns could hope for. Hospitals and medical staff are to blame for to. I believe they are number 2 or 3 when it comes to death in the US through negligence or carelessness. Quit unknowingly glorifying these shooters, like the media does. Im surprised they didnt try to blame video games, like they did in the 90's. Fixing the morals/mindset in this country, I believe, will help cub gun violence. There is a reason why this didnt happen all the time 30+ years ago; despite guns being the same back than.

The media is strongly to blame by giving too much air time to these losers, and by constantly baiting people. There really is not much unbiased journalism anymore. Also, mental health laws arent being followed enough in this country, do them appropriately. Same thing for gun laws through penalties, severely fine people by whatever means to people who dont follow procedures for gun sales. We dont need more gun laws, we need to enforce them/

Talk to Chicago about how they are loving their gun bans. I am sure Congress is holding a lot of gun violence in for away from the public for a reason (profit). So, I would have to have all the data in hand to make more judgements, but with whats reported, this is the way to go imo.

Also, all this texting and anti-social behavior doesnt help much either. We keep on becoming more and more antisocial as a society as society advances, it is clearly showing. People are ruder than ever, numerous cant carry on meaningful conversations in person (because they arent use to it, live in a fantasy land (where text lingo is believed to be proper words), and could go on a lot! I despise smartphones, only good thing about them is the price app, which could have been made without them existing.




1987 Deaths by firearms: 32895(all deaths) Looks like it's been happening for a while now.
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damiangerous wrote:
ohbalto wrote:
Something interesting about Australia that I don't see spoken about often when this sort of discussion comes up:

That old saw, "if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns" proved false after the Aussies banned guns. Why? Because the black market prices for guns skyrocketed after the ban. The figure I remember hearing was that a rifle which would sell for about a thousand dollars was now going, illegally, for thirty-four thousand dollars or more. I mean, if you can afford to blow thirty-four thousand on a single gun, you're probably not going to be holding up convenience stores, you know?

The countries will very strict controls and no real black markets, Australia, Japan, and the UK, have something in common. They're islands. Other countries with similar controls, such as France, are awash in black market guns.

This is true, but I think it is progress if only criminals have guns. Crimimals seem to be more rational than people who buy assault rifles for no good reason. For example, an armed robber just wants money, and is not going to get any by shooting up a church or school.
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Eric Tama
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Oh joy, I just got a notification from the university that shots were fired from a car downtown right next to the public library. Woo gun culture!
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