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Subject: Blue Ribband timing rss

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Iain Brown
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Edge case question, but it happened in the last game I played.

If I deploy a ship to New York that earns me a Blue Ribband but also forces a blue ship of mine to scrap, do I earn the Blue Ribband before or after the blue ship scores?

We ruled it happens on deploy, so before scrappage, but I didn’t think the rules were clear.
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I think that your question is the following:

If a ship is deployed to the North Atlantic region (or New York) so to displace the oldest ship in that region, does the new ship earn a Blue Riband if it is faster than the remaining ships in the region - but not faster than the one that was displaced?

It's a good question.
 
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Don Ryan
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I think the original question was whether the scrapped *blue* ship benefits from the newly acquired blue ribbon in its scoring or not. The English rules say "If a *newly deployed* ship is the fastest in the North Atlantic region, it wins a Blue Riband" which seems to imply post-deployment (i.e., after resolving of any scrapped ships). Interesting question. It would be good to get an official response.
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Glenn Massey
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snorkelboss wrote:
I think the original question was whether the scrapped *blue* ship benefits from the newly acquired blue ribbon in its scoring or not. I would think so since the scoring of the scrapped ship is the last thing that happens on the turn.


FWIW, I agree with Don.
 
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Don Ryan
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LOL - I just changed my answer. It would be good to get an official response.
 
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Iain Brown
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gillum wrote:
I think that your question is the following:

If a ship is deployed to the North Atlantic region (or New York) so to displace the oldest ship in that region, does the new ship earn a Blue Riband if it is faster than the remaining ships in the region - but not faster than the one that was displaced?

It's a good question.


That wasn’t my question, but I like it, even if I doubt it’s possible
 
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Iain Brown
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snorkelboss wrote:
LOL - I just changed my answer. It would be good to get an official response.


Heh. You understood my question, and I’m glad it’s not just me who finds this one ambiguous.
 
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I think that the old (to be scrapped) ship sails first and the Blue Riband is awarded only afterwards.

That is the way it is described in the left column on page 2.

Moreover, the example in the right column goes through the details of old-ship displacement (of which scrapping is another form) and then says that a Blue Riband is awarded.
 
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Glenn Massey
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snorkelboss wrote:
LOL - It would be good to get an official response.


I wholeheartedly agree with Don. Haha!
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Don Ryan
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gillum wrote:
I think that the old (to be scrapped) ship sails first and the Blue Riband is awarded only afterwards.

That is the way it is described in the left column on page 2.

Moreover, the example in the right column goes through the details of old-ship displacement (of which scrapping is another form) and then says that a Blue Riband is awarded.


Agreed. And PD-Verlag confirmed the evaluation of the blue riband only happens after deployment is complete (which implies after the resolution of any scrapped ship) in the other thread here - https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1884370/contracts-and-presi....
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Don Ryan
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Captain1957 wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with Don. Haha!


LOL
 
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snorkelboss wrote:
PD-Verlag confirmed the evaluation of the blue riband only happens after deployment is complete (which implies after the resolution of any scrapped ship) in the other thread here - Re: Contracts and President.

In that thread, Frank Lamprecht did confirm that the oldest ship would indeed be bumped out before you compare with new ship with those remaining.

That thread was more about asking whether the "is the new ship the best" comparisons included the bumped-out ship and wasn't focusing on the final transport of that ship if it cannot be relocated and must be scrapped.

To me, the most natural interpretation is that, if the blue riband is awarded after the old ship is bumped out, the scrapping and sailing of that old ship also takes place before the blue riband is awarded.

But Frank was not completely explicit on that point - I expect that he's tired of these questions by now.


Edit: added "not" above and clarifying post below. blush
 
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Oops - I meant that Frank was not completely explicit.

He did say that a displaced ship was not counted as being "in the region" when it's determined whether the new deployed ship earns a Blue Riband.

While that implies that the older ship is no longer in the region at that time, it doesn't speak to whether that ship has, before the Blue Riband is earned, done its final transport (and is thus past the point of benefiting from the new Blue Riband).

Again, to me, it seems simpler to say that the displacement of the older ship, it scrapping, and its final transport is all one atomic event, but I can't claim that Frank said that specifically.
 
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Timing for a transport card:
1 Deploy a ship and possibly get a Blue Riband (and contracts with the President variant). You compare only with the ships still in the region not with a bumped ship.
2 Deploy bumped ships if possible (no contracts!).
3 Do the card action.
4 Score wrecked ships (and make a last journey)

(If you play shipyard the market is also refilled before you score a wrecked ship. This can be important if the ship which is put to the docks has the same color as the wrecked ship)
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Iain Brown
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Thanks for providing a clear and comprehensive guide there.
 
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Thanks, Frank - this is good to know!

It is especially good to understand that the scrapping and final sailing of a displaced ship comes after the card action - e.g., sailing of other ships for Transport, Region, Cargo, Cruise, Global, and Blue Riband.

Edit: Frank later corrected that the card action comes after the scrapping and sailing.
 
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Ignatius Austriacus
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Frank Lamprecht wrote:
Timing for a transport card:
1 Deploy a ship and possibly get a Blue Riband (and contracts with the President variant). You compare only with the ships still in the region not with a bumped ship.
2 Deploy bumped ships if possible (no contracts!).
3 Do the card action.
4 Score wrecked ships (and make a last journey)

(If you play shipyard the market is also refilled before you score a wrecked ship. This can be important if the ship which is put to the docks has the same color as the wrecked ship)


If this is the official rule, this needs detailed clarification in the rules as it is completely counter-intuitive. Intuitive would be that either all the bumping, wrecking (including the final journey and the scoring) happened before the new ship is placed or afterwards.

Your answer implies that what should be a atomic action is actually three actions happening at four(!) different times which generates two implicit intermediate states which are never talked about in the rules, namely "bumped and scheduled for deployment" and "bumped and found unable to be deployed". To make matters worse, "bumped and scheduled for deployment" is actually two states with two different times, depending on whether it is the original region (would be between 1 and 2 in your timeline) or as a secondary push in a alternate region (during 2 in your timeline).

Gamewise, the most blatant inconsistency is that awards of contracts and blue ribands for the new ship happen as if the last ship is already removed. However, the last journey happens as if the ship is still in the region (trade houses give VPs as is stated in the rules). And whether the scrapping of a (blue) ship considers a possibly awarded new blue riband by the owner is everybody's guess.

OTOH everything is fine when first, the last ship gets pushed out and an eventual bumping cascade gets resolved - including a possible scrapping - before the new ship is placed. This would imply, that a blue riband earned by the new ship is not considered when scrapping an old ship.

I really think we need a Word of God before we can consider this matter settled.

cu

ignatio
 
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ignatio wrote:
Frank Lamprecht wrote:
Timing for a transport card:
1 Deploy a ship and possibly get a Blue Riband (and contracts with the President variant). You compare only with the ships still in the region not with a bumped ship.
2 Deploy bumped ships if possible (no contracts!).
3 Do the card action.
4 Score wrecked ships (and make a last journey)

(If you play shipyard the market is also refilled before you score a wrecked ship. This can be important if the ship which is put to the docks has the same color as the wrecked ship)


If this is the official rule, this needs detailed clarification in the rules as it is completely counter-intuitive. Intuitive would be that either all the bumping, wrecking (including the final journey and the scoring) happened before the new ship is placed or afterwards.

Your answer implies that what should be a atomic action is actually three actions happening at four(!) different times which generates two implicit intermediate states which are never talked about in the rules, namely "bumped and scheduled for deployment" and "bumped and found unable to be deployed". To make matters worse, "bumped and scheduled for deployment" is actually two states with two different times, depending on whether it is the original region (would be between 1 and 2 in your timeline) or as a secondary push in a alternate region (during 2 in your timeline).

Gamewise, the most blatant inconsistency is that awards of contracts and blue ribands for the new ship happen as if the last ship is already removed. However, the last journey happens as if the ship is still in the region (trade houses give VPs as is stated in the rules). And whether the scrapping of a (blue) ship considers a possibly awarded new blue riband by the owner is everybody's guess.

OTOH everything is fine when first, the last ship gets pushed out and an eventual bumping cascade gets resolved - including a possible scrapping - before the new ship is placed. This would imply, that a blue riband earned by the new ship is not considered when scrapping an old ship.

I really think we need a Word of God before we can consider this matter settled.

cu

ignatio


I am sorry, I do not get your point. It is true that number 3 and 4 should be exchanged, my fault. But for the result it does not matter.
It is important, that you redeploy first, because the transport action might be different.
Therefore it is stated in the rules, that a ship which is pushed out has to be redeployed immediately.

In fact any transport card has two actions:
1. deploy a ship ( which leads to number 1,2 and 4 in my original post)
2. do the transport (number 3)
 
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Ignatius Austriacus
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Thank you for you quick reply. Rereading my rant, maybe I really failed to get my point across. I'm not concerned about the timing between the card's two actions ("insert new ship" and the transport action), but of the internal timing of the "insert a new ship" action which (when the sea-boards are full) consists of two main parts: "make place for the new ship" and the actual "insert the new ship".

"make place for the new ship" consists of a cascade of pushing ships out and the eventual scrapping of a ship (if the boards are full). The scrapping of a ship involves a possible final transport and a scoring, both of which can award VPs (through trade houses in the former and ship-scoring in the latter case).

The "insert new ship" part involves, beside the actual placing, the possible awarding of contracts (if played with the President variant) and the awarding of a Blue Riband.

Would there be no interaction between the two parts, then their relative temporal order would not matter. However, there is interaction:


1. The ships present in the region determine the assignment of contracts and blue ribands. It matters if the pushed out ship is still there when this happens.

For the Blue Riband case, the German rules her use the wording "Ist ein Schiff nach dem Einsetzen im Nordatlantik das schnellste Schiff...", the English rules are slightly less clear "If a newly deployed ship is fastest ...". For the contract case the German rules are equally clear "nach dem Einsetzen", the English rules are unclear "if his new ship outnumbers all other ships in he region" (no mention of temporal order).

Still, this case is pretty clear and has IIRC also been settled by Word of Gerts "bumped ship are not considered"


2. The case of VPs assigned by trade houses for the last voyage before scrapping. It is explicitly stated in the rules (both German and English) the the VPs from trade houses are to be assigned, so the last voyage can be considered to happen in the region from which the ship is in the process of being pushed out and about to be scraped.

So far, both of our interpretations lead to same result, even though with your interpretation, the ship has to first leave the region (as far as contracts and blue ribands for the new ship are concerned), then reenter it for its last voyage, and the leave it again for the junkyard. In my interpretation, all "make room for the new ship"-actions (iterated pushing, the last voyage, ship scoring and removal from game) happen before the new ship even enters the region. This seem more natural to me, but so far, they are equivalent.


But there is a 3rd case where the difference matters: If you require, that the pushed out ship is scrapped after the new ship has been placed (and not before), then a Blue Riband earned by the new ship might increase the ship score of the old ship (if it happens to have a blue flag and belong to the owner of the new ship).

If I understand you correctly, this is what you require, by putting the wrecking last. There is however, not the slightest hint in the rules, that this should be the case. In fact, the award of the Blue Riband is the very last thing mentioned in the "deploying ships" section of the rules - after final journey, after scoring and after removal - while in your list, it is the first.

Also the rules, in the order as they stand, do not require a ship to leave (for contracts and blue ribands of the new ship), then reenter (for the last voyage and trade post VPs) then leave again (for good). They simply amount to "1st make room for the new ship, 2nd place the new ship."

So if it is indeed the intention that the scraping (i.e. final voyage, ship-scoring and removal from game) should happen after the new ship is inserted and has its contracts and Blue Riband awarded, the respective rulebook section is not merely unclear but flat out wrong and has to be replaced by something considerably more complicated and counter-intuitive. Knowing almost all of Mac Gert's games and his strive for simplicity, I doubt that this was indeed the intention.

I hope that I managed to present my case better than before.

cu

ignatio
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ignatio wrote:
I really think we need a Word of God before we can consider this matter settled.

Frank is the Word of God for this game.


If you want God himself, you need Mac.
 
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Ignatius Austriacus
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gillum wrote:
ignatio wrote:
I really think we need a Word of God before we can consider this matter settled.

Frank is the Word of God for this game.


If you want God himself, you need Mac.


So this would make Frank a Prophet.

And me Doubting Thomas. I fear I have to "see in his hands the print of the nails". ;-)

Even if Franks interpretation reflects the original intention, given the rules as they are printed, it is now a choice between major errata on one of the core mechanisms or "sacrificing" (to keep up the religious metaphors) the (relatively rare) case of a score boost from a new Blue Riband when scrapping an own blue-flag ship.

ignatio
 
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ignatio wrote:
So if it is indeed the intention that the scraping (i.e. final voyage, ship-scoring and removal from game) should happen after the new ship is inserted and has its contracts and Blue Riband awarded, the respective rulebook section is not merely unclear but flat out wrong and has to be replaced by something considerably more complicated and counter-intuitive. Knowing almost all of Mac Gert's games and his strive for simplicity, I doubt that this was indeed the intention.


I absolutely agree with this.

The current ruling is very very weird, as the ship scrapping is considered to happen BOTH BEFORE the ribbon award (for speed comparison purposes) AND AFTER the ribbon award (for using the newly acquired ribbon to score the ship being scrapped).

It should be either:

* Scrapping happens before: so you don't have your new blue ribbon at the time of the scrapping/scoring but you won't have to compete against the scrapped ship's speed when checking to see if you get a new blue ribbon.
OR
* Scrapping happens after: so you have to compete against the speed of the ship that will be scrapped later, but if you get a new ribbon, you will benefit from it during the scrapping/scoring.

We will be playing the 1st interpretation, as it makes a lot more sense than the current interpretation. It feels dubious that the current interpretation is intended. I'm still hoping to get a better call.
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Lapsus wrote:
The current ruling is very very weird, as the ship scrapping is considered to happen BOTH BEFORE the ribbon award (for speed comparison purposes) AND AFTER the ribbon award (for using the newly acquired ribbon to score the ship being scrapped).

The current ruling does not say that scrapping occurs before awarding of a Blue Ribband.

It says that the oldest ship is removed from the area before evaluation for a Blue Ribband for the new ship.

Only after that removal of the old ship and the awarding of the Blue Ribband is the removed ship either redeployed or scrapped. If it is scrapped, the newly one Blue Ribband has an impact on scoring.

I think that the following language may be unfortunate: "If a region cannot contain more ships, the oldest ship is pushed out and has to be redeployed immediately if that is possible (applying the deployment rules from above, the ship’s owner decides). If no redeployment is possible, the ship is scrapped instead."

Despite the word "immediately," the ruling is that the "pushing out" and "redeploy/scrap are not atomic. The ruling is that the old ship is first pushed out, then a Blue Ribband may be awarded, and then the old ship is redeployed or scrapped.
 
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Darrell Goodridge
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Soooo...the current ruling would be that the player in this edge case WOULD score an extra point (or two)? I think that's how I would have interpreted it as well, perhaps counter-intuitively.
 
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gillum wrote:
Despite the word "immediately," the ruling is that the "pushing out" and "redeploy/scrap are not atomic. The ruling is that the old ship is first pushed out, then a Blue Ribband may be awarded, and then the old ship is redeployed or scrapped.


That's also weird. Those should really be an atomic operation. The rules suggest that too: You score points for the houses of the sea region where the shipped is scrapped. But if it's pushed out first, then the ship is out of the sea region when the scrapping happens, so the houses shouldn't score.

Anyway, my intuition/opinion is that this is a flawed interpretation/ruling that should be adjusted to make sense
 
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