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Subject: Backup ammunition + Crater rss

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When using the elemental addition of Push +1 exp on Crater and the extra target from backup ammunition does the character gain 1 exp total if any target is pushed or 1 exp per target pushed?
 
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J Desroches
Canada
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From two similar questions that I saw Isaac answer adding a target resulted in all effects being copied with the exception of add target only causes one increased target on aoe attacks and not a copy of the whole area.

One of those was an additional experience question and in another a abnormal effect got copied.


It is worth noting that backup ammo loses a charge on all ranged attacks whether or not there is an extra target in range or not.
 
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Trang VP
Australia
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No, you don't get the extra XP.

The XP gain comes from consuming the element. You can only consume an element once in a turn. Consuming the element affects the whole attack action though, which means the push is applied to any additional attacks coming from "Add Target" from Backup Ammunition. But it is still only the single consumption of an element.

If XP gain was tied to some other part of the action though, instead of the consumption of the element, then that is a different matter, and would depend on the wording of the card.
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J Desroches
Canada
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TrangVP wrote:
No, you don't get the extra XP.

The XP gain comes from consuming the element. You can only consume an element once in a turn. Consuming the element affects the whole attack action though, which means the push is applied to any additional attacks coming from "Add Target" from Backup Ammunition. But it is still only the single consumption of an element.

If XP gain was tied to some other part of the action though, instead of the consumption of the element, then that is a different matter, and would depend on the wording of the card.


I am not sure that is right.. If what you say is true then the second target also doesn't get pushed.

Isaac's direct quote is
Isaac Childress wrote:
All conditions and other effects of the attack (other than effects that would add additional attack targets) would apply to the added target, as well.


Either everything from the elemental consumption is not copied (no push and no experience) or the whole thing becomes part of the attack and as stated by Isaac all effects are applied to the new target.

I am not 100% sure and I can't find any official answer through my search about whether add target also copies element consumption effects or not.
 
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Matt Ziemer
Canada
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Trang is very rarely mistaken from my experience. In addition, from my understanding of the previous discussions on the forums, I'm in agreement with him. Spending the element adds the additional effects of push 1 and gain one experience to your action. Back up ammo adds the effect of target 2. No reason for there to be an extra experience from the second attack.

If the attack said gain one experience for each enemy targeted, for example, then yes back up ammo would result in another experience.
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Gazery Pooh

Keighley
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You are both kinda right.

It does allow you to replicate the whole attack again, so you would gain all of the benefits associated with the attack - including the xp gain.

HOWEVER, to gain that xp again, you would need to consume the element again. But as the element has already been consumed on the first attack, there will be no element left to consume for the second attack. Hence you would NOT gain the xp again.
 
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Per Erlandsson
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Gazery wrote:
You are both kinda right.

It does allow you to replicate the whole attack again, so you would gain all of the benefits associated with the attack - including the xp gain.

HOWEVER, to gain that xp again, you would need to consume the element again. But as the element has already been consumed on the first attack, there will be no element left to consume for the second attack. Hence you would NOT gain the xp again.

Any source on that statement?

I was under the impression that a "+Target" bonus simply changed the targetting rules for an attack action, not copy the whole attack action. For melee you get an extra melee target and for any ranged attack (Bow/Arrow) gets an extra attack with that range on a new target.

Also I assume that the intention of Backup Ammunition is to trigger once per attack action not once per attacked target.
 
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Chris Willott
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I agree, I don't see any reason to copy the entire attack action when it just says: add a target.
 
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Jason S
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Willottica wrote:
I agree, I don't see any reason to copy the entire attack action when it just says: add a target.


This happened to me last night and I will tell you how we played it and why.

First, the rulebook says ("Add Target" pg. 22):

Quote:
All added effects and conditions of the attack action are applied to the target, as well, except for effects that would result in additional targets outside of the original added target


And recently Issac said in relation to monsters activating that they all consume an element and get the buff before any attacks happen, and highlighted how the buff is added to the moves list for each monster. We think this is a similar situation, where it is being applied twice with one element consumption and then applied twice to each attack.

And the push and the XP gain were both AFTER the colon, separated by a comma. So it seems to infer you get them both.

We played that the second attack gets another push and another XP gain. Until Issac states otherwise, this is how we are going to play.

Edit: Sorry to revive an old thread, but I don't believe there is an official or community decision on how to handle this situation and wanted to throw in my two cents.
 
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Ravi Bhikhie
Netherlands
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Sorry to bump an older post again.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with a few folks, possibly including Isaac. I played this particular combo last night and it felt strange to also get a second XP.
How I've been playing BUA recently is just counting it as "this other card now has target +1 written on it".

Meaning for Crater, I get to attack and possibly push an extra target. But the Experience is tied to the consumption of the Earth element, not the extra target.
This is different from Push.
Isaac said
Quote:
All added effects and conditions of the attack action are applied to the target,


I'm counting the Push as an added effect, but not the XP.

If Crater would have "Target 2" written on it and BUA was not present, how would you play the card? That's basically how I'm playing it.

What does the audience think?
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Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
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EXP is not an added effect and thus would not be copied. Only if you have an ability that says gain exp for each targeted enemy, then you gain an additional exp from backup ammunition.
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Nathan Kaplan
United States
Waltham
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It helped me to think of it thusly:

ADD TARGET effectively just adds an extra line to the ability that says "target 2" (assuming the ability only has one target to begin with)

Therefore, Backup Ammo turns

Attack 3, Range 3, [consume leaf] = push 2 + 1XP

into

Attack 3, Range 3, Target 2, [consume leaf] = push 2 + 1XP

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