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Zack Hiwiller
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Hi all,

Played Keyper for the first time last night and loved it. We screwed up some things, but I think ironed them out by the end of the year.

One thing that all of us had a little trouble wrapping our heads around was that when a player claims a board with >8 keyples on it, that player will have a bonus for the rest of the game and there will be fewer keyples overall from which to claim.

Example:
In Spring, Keyples are 8/8/8/8.
At the end of Spring, Player 1 claims a board with 10 meeples on it, so now the distribution is 10/8/7/7.
For the rest of the game, since each player can only play 8, the surplus two are essentially out of rotation and there will be only 30 keyples to play with. Is that correct?

I fell victim to this in my game as I was last to claim a country board twice and ended the game with only four keyples (and they were colors I didn't care for). At least one player had >8 meeples in Summer, Fall, and Winter.

I ended up winning (barely) despite that, but I imagine in future games (this was everyone's first go) that the person with the fewest keyples is going to have a really hard time.

What happens if a player is forced to claim a board that has very few keyples? Do they just have to hope to make do with the scraps of lay down actions from the spots the other players did not follow each other?
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Caitlin Tracy
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I think that once the season is over, Keyples on a player's keyp are included in their overall amount... so for example if the player that had 10 Keyples at the beginning of Summertime only receives 6 at the end of Summer, then for Fall they would have 8 to use (the 6 they got from Summer ending and the 2 that were standing on their keyp.)

At least that is my understanding of the rules. From my one play, I found that having the lay down actions was very powerful and I almost regretted having so many Keyples because once you start your points generating you usually want to continue on the same path... meaning take the same actions again, which you can do by laying down Keyples.

Of course I've only played 1 game with 2 players (but I played as both to learn the rules) so I cannot say for sure.
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Zack Hiwiller
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Caitlin147 wrote:
I think that once the season is over, Keyples on a player's keyp are included in their overall amount... so for example if the player that had 10 Keyples at the beginning of Summertime only receives 6 at the end of Summer, then for Fall they would have 8 to use (the 6 they got from Summer ending and the 2 that were standing on their keyp.)

At least that is my understanding of the rules. From my one play, I found that having the lay down actions was very powerful and I almost regretted having so many Keyples because once you start your points generating you usually want to continue on the same path... meaning take the same actions again, which you can do by laying down Keyples.

Of course I've only played 1 game with 2 players (but I played as both to learn the rules) so I cannot say for sure.


Yes, that's a good point.

I hadn't thought of that because in our game, two of us always (past Spring that is) had more than 8 and two of us always had less than 8.

 
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Murr Rockstroh
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In our 2 player play through the first time, I was already considering this, and just made sure I played as balanced as possible to the boards, or simply played onto my own board to avoid putting too many meeples onto one country board. I think that's part of the decision making process. It's up to the players to balance this out.

"Yes I want to take that action, but do I really want to put the 9th or 10th meeple on that claimed (or unclaimed) country board?"
 
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Zack Hiwiller
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I should probably ask this in a different thread, but has anyone come up with a better way to organize the bits other than a million baggies?
 
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Derry Salewski
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zhiwiller wrote:
I should probably ask this in a different thread, but has anyone come up with a better way to organize the bits other than a million baggies?


Plano box holds basically everything. I forget which number I use but can check when I go home. it's a size that is really amazing for many games.

Player bits in DVG geek boxes.

Everything fits great into the box!

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Colby Brown
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zhiwiller wrote:
I should probably ask this in a different thread, but has anyone come up with a better way to organize the bits other than a million baggies?


I almost exclusively use something like these in all my games instead of baggies. They're small, disposable cups with lids. Pieces can be served out of the cups, or the players can easily pass them around the table. They fit inside the boxes as well as (if not better than) plastic bags and are much easier to work with.

I have a large table with a lazy susan, so I usually put all the cups going around the perimeter. Then, players can just spin it to get the resources they need.

Edit: Here's a picture to show what I'm talking about:
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Scott Nelson
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brobo wrote:
zhiwiller wrote:
I should probably ask this in a different thread, but has anyone come up with a better way to organize the bits other than a million baggies?


I almost exclusively use something like these in all my games instead of baggies. They're small, disposable cups with lids. Pieces can be served out of the cups, or the players can easily pass them around the table. They fit inside the boxes as well as (if not better than) plastic bags and are much easier to work with.

I have a large table with a lazy susan, so I usually put all the cups going around the perimeter. Then, players can just spin it to get the resources they need.

Edit: Here's a picture to show what I'm talking about:


I need one of those
 
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Nicola Bocchetta
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The layer with less meeples starts laying meeples on the boards before the other players, so he’s compensated somehow.
 
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Richard Breese
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zhiwiller wrote:
Played Keyper for the first time last night and loved it.
Please you did, given the challenges.
zhiwiller wrote:
One thing that all of us had a little trouble wrapping our heads around was that when a player claims a board with >8 keyples on it, that player will have a bonus for the rest of the game …
No. For the next season. Beyond that it depends on how the keyples are distributed in the that following season.
zhiwiller wrote:
… and there will be fewer keyples overall from which to claim.
For the next season. But not necessarily beyond that as the ‘rested’ keyples will come back as part of the controlling player’s team, which may otherwise be fewer than 8 keyples..
zhiwiller wrote:
For the rest of the game, since each player can only play 8, the surplus two are essentially out of rotation and there will be only 30 [(8 x 4) – 2] keyples to play with. Is that correct?
No. See above. The number can fluctuate.
zhiwiller wrote:
What happens if a player is forced to claim a board that has very few keyples? Do they just have to hope to make do with the scraps of lay down actions from the spots the other players did not follow each other?
No. This can be an interesting tactic. If you can claim an empty board you can start laying down on the other player’s boards, which can be quite lucrative – until they start playing on your empty board to thwart you (as you must then lay those keyples down next).
Caitlin147 wrote:
Keyples on a player's keyp are included in their overall amount...
Correct.
Caitlin147 wrote:
From my one play, I found that having the lay down actions was very powerful …
Yes, it can be as you found. Often a team of 6 or 7 can be optimal.

I hope you will continue to enjoy your games of Keyper.
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Jake Staines
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Richard Breese wrote:

If you can claim an empty board you can start laying down on the other player’s boards, which can be quite lucrative – until they start playing on your empty board to thwart you (as you must then lay those keyples down next).


I suspect this is a commonly-missed rule, since I don't think it's actually explicitly stated in the rulebook (just that - IIRC - the player with no more keyples to place must lay down those on their own player board and claimed country board by preference, so it implies that they can go further afield if they run out).

Having this option changes the tactics quite significantly - there's a point where it may well be to your benefit to have basically no keyples, because then you can look around on your turn and lay down more or less anything. Which can be amazingly useful for screwing over other people's plans, let alone getting whichever resources or actions you care to.





A question along those lines, though: in the rarer-than-rare situation where one player not only doesn't have very many keyples and has finished laying the ones on their player board and claimed country board, but also no other country boards have keyples to lay down, is the keyple-less player allowed to start taking lay-down actions on other players' player boards? I've not seen it happen, but it strikes me that it's entirely possible by the final season.

Similarly, what does happen when players run out of keyples to lay down? For example, if by the final turn one player had a full complement of 8 keyples, but the others had one or even none each? In the first turn around the board they all place their keypers and claim countries, in the second turn they start on lay-down actions but only one player has been playing keyples so at most there's two on the board for three players... what happens when a player has a turn but there's literally no action they can legally take?
 
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Prince of Sholai

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Actually, on page 6, one of the conditions listed for lay down actions is that the keyple(s) must be on either the player's player board or the country board that the player has claimed.

Toward the bottom of the second column of the page, it does say that if the condition cannot be met because all of those keyples on both of those locations are already down, then a player can lay down on other boards.

Finally, it says at the very bottom of the same page that the player gets no action if there are no keyples to lay down.

Hope that helps!
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Murr Rockstroh
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My storage solution
 
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Richard Breese
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Bichatse wrote:
Richard Breese wrote:
If you can claim an empty board you can start laying down on the other player’s boards, which can be quite lucrative – until they start playing on your empty board to thwart you (as you must then lay those keyples down next).
I suspect this is a commonly-missed rule, since I don't think it's actually explicitly stated in the rulebook …
See bottom of column 2, page 6.
Bichatse wrote:
Having this option changes the tactics quite significantly - there's a point where it may well be to your benefit to have basically no keyples, because then you can look around on your turn and lay down more or less anything. Which can be amazingly useful for screwing over other people's plans, let alone getting whichever resources or actions you care to.
It doesn’t happen often and is quite a difficult position to manufacture. But as you say it can be lucrative (and fun) if it happens. Just one more tactic to explore!
Bichatse wrote:
A question along those lines, though: in the rarer-than-rare situation where one player not only doesn't have very many keyples and has finished laying the ones on their player board and claimed country board, but also no other country boards have keyples to lay down, is the keyple-less player allowed to start taking lay-down actions on other players' player boards?
No. It did happen in playtesting. But we felt it was a much better gaming experience to know your own player board was sacrosanct and safe from the other players.
Bichatse wrote:
I've not seen it happen, but it strikes me that it's entirely possible by the final season.
It’s more likely to happen with one of the expansion tiles (see 2018!)
Bichatse wrote:
Similarly, what does happen when players run out of keyples to lay down? For example, if by the final turn one player had a full complement of 8 keyples, but the others had one or even none each? In the first turn around the board they all place their keypers and claim countries, in the second turn they start on lay-down actions but only one player has been playing keyples so at most there's two on the board for three players...
I suspect this would be very suboptimal play! But note that you can also prevent other players from joining by playing on your player board which can have a similar effect.
Bichatse wrote:
… what happens when a player has a turn but there's literally no action they can legally take?
The player does not get an action (See last para, page 6.)
CounterCount wrote:
Actually, on page 6, one of the conditions listed for lay down actions is that the keyple(s) must be on either the player's player board or the country board that the player has claimed.
Correct.
CounterCount wrote:
Toward the bottom of the second column of the page, it does say that if the condition cannot be met because all of those keyples on both of those locations are already down, then a player can lay down on other boards.
Correct.
CounterCount wrote:
Finally, it says at the very bottom of the same page that the player gets no action if there are no keyples to lay down.
Correct.
CounterCount wrote:
Hope that helps!
Yes. Thanks both for your input. I hope you enjoy the game.
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