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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Skilled Retreat -- Space Battle "ends in a draw"? rss

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aggixx gaming
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Me and another player had a disagreement about the wording of the Skilled Retreat card. I retreated all of my ships from the activated sector using Skilled Retreat, so he (the active player) wanted to bombard my planets now that I had no ships defending them.

He says that I have no ships defending so he should be able to bombard, but I say that it explicitly states the space battle ends in a draw, not that he won the battle.

Game mechanics aside, it would make sense that he can bombard if I leave the system undefended, but the card seemingly goes out of its way to muddle things up.

So, can the activate player bombard the planets in the active system? If yes, what meaning is the card trying to convey by stating the space battle "ends in a draw"?

PS: I don't have the full text of the card since I don't own the game and I can't find it online. It is definitely different than TI3, though. If someone could post it that would be great.
 
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Łukasz S
Poland
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If card says that Space Battle inmediately ends so yes he was right.
Bombardment is NOT a part of Space Battle. It's a part of Invasion. And Invasion is after Space Battle and this is not the same
So yes, he can bombard your planet
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aggixx gaming
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Yes, but my argument was that since he didn't win the battle he cannot proceed to bombardment.

Anyways, if you do think the active player can bombard what is "ends in a draw" supposed to convey? If it doesn't mean you can't proceed to invasion then it has to mean something else or the writer could've omitted it entirely.

Another explanation brought up at our table is that it means the active player does not need to destroy fighters in excess of his fleet's capacity (since the rules reference says only the winner of a combat needs to do that) but that seems a bit contrived to me.
 
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Łukasz S
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Why tehy should write in card about Invasion if this card treat about Space battle and Inasion is not Space Battle?
They wrote about only Space Battle.
 
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Łukasz S
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Or next example. Your argument was wrong. You know why?
Try imagine situtation ob board like this: you hae Infantry on planet and you oponent has fleet in space. If he want activate this system he can Bombard your planet. Without space battle(bcs only his ships was in this system)
Winning Space Battle is not always condition to start Invasion. Is the way to make this but not always. Sometimes you hae empty Space and only planet defense. Then I activate this system and inmediately start Invasion Step.
And after your retreat your system was without your ships.
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aggixx gaming
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zedzik88 wrote:
Why tehy should write in card about Invasion if this card treat about Space battle and Inasion is not Space Battle?
They wrote about only Space Battle.


That's a good point.

I suppose the simplest explanation is that "ends in a draw" is clarification that no one lost ships in the space combat, but is that something that really needed clarifying? The TI3 card didn't have this wording and it seemed plenty clear to me that the retreat happens before any ships are lost (barring PDS or what not).


zedzik88 wrote:
Or next example. Your argument was wrong. You know why?
Try imagine situtation ob board like this: you hae Infantry on planet and you oponent has fleet in space. If he want activate this system he can Bombard your planet. Without space battle(bcs only his ships was in this system)
Winning Space Battle is not always condition to start Invasion. Is the way to make this but not always. Sometimes you hae empty Space and only planet defense. Then I activate this system and inmediately start Invasion Step.
And after your retreat your system was without your ships.


Sure, I don't claim that my argument is perfect, if it was I wouldn't need to post this thread. No one at the table was able to figure out why the card was worded this way, though, so that's why I'm posting.
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Markus
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I think you should definitely be able to bombard. As mentioned above, bombardment is a part of invasion and I don't think it says anywhere that you have to win a space battle to be able to do it.

The clarification on the card that the combat ends in a draw is probably because some objectives require you to win a space combat. So this card then will not allow you to fulfill that objective.
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Dan Bigmore
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aggixx wrote:
Yes, but my argument was that since he didn't win the battle he cannot proceed to bombardment.

There's no rule about having to win space combat as a pre-requisite to an invasion.

Quote:
Anyways, if you do think the active player can bombard what is "ends in a draw" supposed to convey?

My best guess is that this is to cover other cards/abilities that might say something like, "After winning a space combat...". The skilled retreat denies the other player the chance to play such a card.

Edit: ninja'd
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aggixx gaming
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Markus_N wrote:
I think you should definitely be able to bombard. As mentioned above, bombardment is a part of invasion and I don't think it says anywhere that you have to win a space battle to be able to do it.

The clarification on the card that the combat ends in a draw is probably because some objectives require you to win a space combat. So this card then will not allow you to fulfill that objective.


Ah, that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for your input guys.
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Tomasz Musial
Poland
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There are secret objectives like "win a space battle against player with most points" - this is explanation of why it says "this space battle ends in draw" - so he can proceed to bombard your planet.
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Sara Yorke
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We also need to look at the racial tech for the Mental Coallition. One of them has.......

Whenever you win or lose a space battle gain a trade good, if you win also gain a ship of a type destroyed.

A draw prevents both these outcomes.
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Steve Williams
United States
Columbus
Ohio
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The "ends in a draw" text is absolutely there to hose objectives and abilities that care about winning.

Had a game where my scored secret objective to win a space battle with my flagship got turned into a Public objective, meaning others could score it and I could score it again, then had Skilled Retreats come out of the woodwork making me miss it two rounds in a row.
 
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