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Subject: Mindthief post level 5 strategy rss

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Alex Kerr
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I'm about to hit level 5 on my Mindthief and retirement is looking a long way away. Does anyone have any experience they would like to share with a certain level 5 card?

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Doubling up on augments looks like a lot of fun. How does it work in practice? Do you enable it as early as possible to get a longer benefit or do you find that that leads to early exhaustion with a lost card before first rest? I don't mean turning it on in the first round but planning to use it in the same round as your 2nd augment card.

What about combos? +2 damage can be always on then thought of cycling through healing and muddle/poison as needed. Does this leave the rest of your deck a bit too thin? Given that you'd kind of need to pull at least one augment back every rest, or both depending on number of cards in the discard, does setting up 2 augments take too much time to be useful?

The stun with ice augment looks great to replace the level 1 top attack card that does the same, but annoyingly it's the other level 5 card.

TLDR: is a 2 augment strategy worth it? (Playing alongside scoundrel, cragheart and spellweaver)
 
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Grant Stewart
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alekskerr wrote:
I'm about to hit level 5 on my Mindthief and retirement is looking a long way away. Does anyone have any experience they would like to share with a certain level 5 card?

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Doubling up on augments looks like a lot of fun. How does it work in practice? Do you enable it as early as possible to get a longer benefit or do you find that that leads to early exhaustion with a lost card before first rest? I don't mean turning it on in the first round but planning to use it in the same round as your 2nd augment card.

What about combos? +2 damage can be always on then thought of cycling through healing and muddle/poison as needed. Does this leave the rest of your deck a bit too thin? Given that you'd kind of need to pull at least one augment back every rest, or both depending on number of cards in the discard, does setting up 2 augments take too much time to be useful?

The stun with ice augment looks great to replace the level 1 top attack card that does the same, but annoyingly it's the other level 5 card.

TLDR: is a 2 augment strategy worth it? (Playing alongside scoundrel, cragheart and spellweaver)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
While I didn't pick it up myself, I had much the same concern about it: Setting up two augments is expensive, as is using the card itself.

Assuming you bring The Mind's Weakness, and Mass Hysteria, you need to be bringing at least one other augment you'll want up MOST of the time. Likely candidates are poison+muddle, one of the healing augments, or maybe even double dipping for the stun augment at level 6 - which is devoting three of your ten card slots to augments.

Aggressively you're doing move+TMW round 1, Augment#2+Mass Hysteria round 2. Round 3-4-5 can be whatever. Then you either pickup both augments and spend round 1 and 2 setting them up again, round 3-4 using them; OR you leave them down and play 3 rounds with double augments before needing to pickup cards again.

I tend to feel like my top action opportunities are better spent on fearsome blade, frigid apparition, scurry, or hostile takeover.

If you really wanted to hit like a truck Submissive Affliction + The Mind's Weakness + Withering Claw might be a game plan.

If you bring both healing augments, there is an argument to be made for Mass Hysteria later turning you into medic-mouse when injured. 4 healing per attack is a lot of YOUR health pool, even at max level, and could make retaliates far less annoying.
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Ahmad Siddiqi
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This is perhaps not the most useful comment, since I had to retire my Mindthief at 4, but [spoilers for musical note class]
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Soothsinger's songs work mechanically the same way and she also has a card allowing two to be equipped at once. My wife has been equipping that card during the first or second rest cycle, while making it a point to always recycle one or two cards when resting. She hasn't come anywhere near exhaustion once she got the rhythm right, and Soothsinger is a 9 card class, so I would think you could pull it off with the Mindthief. A stamina potion or two will help.
 
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Entrox Licher
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I think there’s one thing you’re not considering

Spoiler (click to reveal)
And it’s that the top action of that card is pretty good. Admittedly, the first synergy I thought up was with the Pull cards from the perk, since I was already using Hostile Takeover and our bottom ranged stun on initiative 8, so I thought I would get good use out of it. Reality hasn’t panned out that way, but I have discovered that it is an excellent way of thinning the attack mod, both yours and the monsters (since it muddles). All the more so if you have the strengthen card for our darling Mindthief. I took that card and my original plan didn’t pan out at all, but a new strategy was born fro, circumstance. Man I love this game.
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Jason Kratz
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I tend to find cards like that where you can have 2 abilities active situational at best. You have 9 cards, and the card that allows for two augments is lost once played. If you play it during the first rest cycle, your remaining rest cycles are 3 turns and if you just leave your augments out, you are greatly limiting your number of turns.

Without stamina potions, and assuming you don't lose cards for damage:

Best case you get 8 turns where both augments are present and you aren't playing an augment (if you never pull back your augments, and then you're exhausted). This is only a total of 10 turns, and assumes you never drop a card to avoid damage. You get an 11th and 12th turn if you pull back both augments to prevent exhaustion.

If you are pulling your augments back to maximize the number of plays, you only get six turns where both augments are in play at the start of the turn so you can play something else. You have a total of 16 turns, but a minimum of 6 of them are playing augments.

My point is that unless you are in a scenario you know is going to be short, there is a significant cost to being able to have 2 augments in play, and you don't really get to use it as much as it first appears without crippling your character.
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Stefan
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Stryker1979 wrote:
I tend to find cards like that where you can have 2 abilities active situational at best. You have 9 cards, and the card that allows for two augments is lost once played. If you play it during the first rest cycle, your remaining rest cycles are 3 turns and if you just leave your augments out, you are greatly limiting your number of turns.

Without stamina potions, and assuming you don't lose cards for damage:

Best case you get 8 turns where both augments are present and you aren't playing an augment (if you never pull back your augments, and then you're exhausted). This is only a total of 10 turns, and assumes you never drop a card to avoid damage. You get an 11th and 12th turn if you pull back both augments to prevent exhaustion.

If you are pulling your augments back to maximize the number of plays, you only get six turns where both augments are in play at the start of the turn so you can play something else. You have a total of 16 turns, but a minimum of 6 of them are playing augments.

My point is that unless you are in a scenario you know is going to be short, there is a significant cost to being able to have 2 augments in play, and you don't really get to use it as much as it first appears without crippling your character.

The Mindthief has 10 cards, not 9. Also one should consider the equipment, as later on you get a couple of more stuff like the stamina potion, which helps you picking up cards again and makes becomming exhausted due to too few cards more and more unlikely.

Our mindhief player has this card in her deck, but while playing the char myself I could not really say, if it is good or bad. Biggest problem is, that the +2 dmg does not really have a good combination apart from muddle/poison unless you take that stun augment. Also the lvl 9 augment card which is quite strong does not work together with any other augment. I think that card works best if you play the mindthief as some kind of tank, where you combo shield with ranged retaliate.
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Alex Kerr
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Coming back to this now as still haven't been able to retire but am level 9 and have all tickboxes checked. Decided to take both level 5 cards (double augment and stun augment) and build the deck around having lots of ice generation with mana and stamina pots to help out.

So in practice after several high level games, it's amazing. Can generate ice almost every turn and throw out stuns left right and centre while still keeping the +2 on all attacks. Weak enemies get one shot, strong ones get stun locked. Put a bless sticker on the move 2 heal 2 and a +1 range and wound on the ranged stun card. Bottom of the stun augment is also great for moving enemies into traps when it's not in play as an augment. With 14 hp, health pot and invisible cloak can weather the front lines very easily.

I generally keep the double augment as my only loss card, sometimes using cranium explosion too if there is a good opportunity but even then tend to be pretty good for cards in hand by the end of each scenario.

TLDR, it works really well!
 
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Steven Babel
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I wish I had more time to play around with this strategy but my thief only had one game at level 5 before retiring. I used it to play +2 Damage and Shield augments. It did not work out well and we lost our first game. Keeping it for its crowd control would have probably saved us that game. I think this will get stronger with higher levels and I would take it anyway because the top half the card is really good. Then just use it when you need to. A lot of the pairs seem situational, Shield and retaliate if you can make several Top and bottom attacks while surrounded. Poison and muddle against high health or shielded targets that'll be around a while. +2 damage and stun seems generically the strongest. Although an item I found made this less exciting.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Sword that can consume Ice on melee attacks to add +2 to the attack. That +2 let me one shot so many thing I rarely needed the stun.


Overall though I felt the MindThief could take more situational tops just cause every top being Attack 4 at worst still kills quickly.
 
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Adastra
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I could use some advice as well - my Mindthief is level 5 now, and so far my strategy has been to use The Mind's Weakness combined with a lot of Invisibility. I find the Invisibility card a bit of a waste in my hand by now though (the top is useless)... is there a different strategy I can use to avoid damage while also doing meelee attacks?!
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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raevynn wrote:
I could use some advice as well - my Mindthief is level 5 now, and so far my strategy has been to use The Mind's Weakness combined with a lot of Invisibility. I find the Invisibility card a bit of a waste in my hand by now though (the top is useless)... is there a different strategy I can use to avoid damage while also doing meelee attacks?!


Strategy #1: Go invisible
Strategy #2: Kill or Stun everything near you (Perverse Edge helps)
Strategy #3: Go with late initiative and let the tank draw fire
Strategy #4: Run away after you attack


I would much rather go invisible in a useful spot than move up to a useful spot with late initiative, attack late that turn, attack early the next turn, and then run away from that useful spot, only to have to run up there again the following turn.

I have found invisibility to be extremely useful, it has allowed me to attack targets that none of my teammates can safely attack because it's too dangerous for them to get into range to attack.

I've thinned my deck down to 12 non-rolling cards and 9 rolling cards, so I have a good chance of applying a stun, disarm, or immobilize when using Mass Hysteria on 4 targets. I can also use Perverse Edge's stun (that I've enhanced to range 3) to stun an enemy that my teammates can't reach. And I added immobilize to Fearsome Blade, so I can push an enemy back (often into a trap) and even farther away from my teammates.

I've literally never tried using two augments at once, but I have found that with my attack deck, the top of Mass Hysteria is extremely useful (even if you don't draw a rolling stun, disarm, or immobilize, the enemy is still muddled).

The top of Into the Night isn't useless. It's a nice card to play after you and your teammates have killed everything. You can play it and do a Loot 1 (because you're already in melee range) and then move towards the next room. When there's nothing to attack, it's a very nice top option to have.
 
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Tim Rogers
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gabrielrockman1 wrote:
Strategy #1: Go invisible
Strategy #2: Kill or Stun everything near you (Perverse Edge helps)
Strategy #3: Go with late initiative and let the tank draw fire
Strategy #4: Run away after you attack

This. I prefer stuns over invisibility though, because then the enemy doesn't hit anything.
So I'd go:
1) Kill stuff - dead things don't do much damage
2) Stun stuff - these do as much damage as dead stuff
3) Muddle stuff - usually you can take a hit or two and heal up with your move + heal bottom.
4) Go invisible - I try to limit this, as I prefer to do more useful things most of the time. I don't think Into the Night is worth taking unless you need the element (team member or much later on).
5) Run away - this only usually works if you let someone else take the hits, which might be fine in your group

Typically, I'll position myself such that I'm only adjacent to one non-controlled enemy. Run in and stun (hope it dies), another enemy may hit me. Use bottom stun to control the other enemy while you finish the first. Finish the next, move and heal.

gabrielrockman1 wrote:
I can also use Perverse Edge's stun (that I've enhanced to range 3) to stun an enemy that my teammates can't reach.


This was sadly not my first enhancement. It was my second and was great value. I loved it so much that I put wound on it too (I recommend Pilfer at level 4, because gold means enhancements, which makes for a better mindthief).
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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I play on four player, so killing & stunning everything is more challenging. Especially if you're attacking the enemies in the back while your teammates are still working on the guys up front.

Going invisible doesn't have to mean that your teammates get hit instead. It can also just mean that you're close enough to enemies that can't attack your allies but can attack you. Same thing with running away.

You don't have to assume that every enemy gets to attack someone. You're allowed to get far enough away from them that they can't attack anyone. If you play with faster initiative than the enemy, you get to see exactly what they are going to do before you take your turn.

Stuns aren't the only way to make the enemy not hit anything.
 
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Tim Rogers
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Yeah, I usually play 2 or 3 player, so it's a bit different. Stun becomes much better with lower enemy counts etc. There are only a few enemies that don't have decent move on them though, and you don't know what their move value will be until after you've selected your cards. I've been caught out thinking that I'll hit and run, then getting smashed by guards doing ranged attacks and monsters doing move +2 etc. Still, I guess that's what boots are for.
Still, if it works for you then that's great. I'm in the happy position of fighting fewer guys so my way of playing with a more stand and deliver approach generally works well for me.

Do you find that going behind the front line works pretty well? I generally don't do it unless fighting ranged enemies, and then it gets pretty risky that you'll take a lot of fire.
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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I've found that going behind enemy lines works extremely well. There's so much that you can do when you're behind enemy lines.

One of the biggest ones is damaging or stunning oozes before they split. This makes a big difference.

Another one is using Fearsome Blade to push enemies farther back. Now that I put immobilize on Fearsome Blade, this often keeps one enemy from getting close enough to my teammates that he can attack them. By pushing him 3 spots backwards and immobilizing him, it basically allows my teammates two more turns of attacking the guys in the front before the elite ranged guy in the back can start attacking them.

It also lets me use Fearsome Blade to push enemies into traps in ways that I wouldn't be able to do if I wasn't using invisibility.

Last week in Scenario 26, I actually was able to stun an elite ooze to keep him from splitting when none of my teammates were even within range 7 of him (none of my teammates had entered the room yet). In the next room, I was able to go next to a water pump 5 spots into the room before any of my teammates even entered the room. And two turns after that I used Fearsome Blade + Battle-Axe to push two Night Demons into stun traps as they moved past me to attack my teammates (who still hadn't entered the room)

Because there was a Cragheart in the group (he just retired last week), I could use invisibility to get around the rules about obstacle placement. This means I took damage from his Rock Slide sometimes, but if he placed an obstacle next to me, it could severely alter the enemy's path, sometimes even temporarily blocking them.

I remember in Scenario 14 I skipped the hounds (because they do retaliate damage) and went straight for the Living Spirits in the back. After my second turn (playing with initiative 8) I had killed both normal living spirits and stunned the elite. That was where I learned exactly what my role should be (which I reprised in scenario 20 by killing/stunning Cultists before they could summon Living Bones).

There are a lot of situations where there is some ranged guy in the back (or some guy that summons) that will be a pain if he's ignored, and that's where the Mindthief is best equipped to go after and deal with these pains. None of the other starting classes can effectively do this.

We learned very early on how painful it is for the ranged guys to be completely ignored and to draw a card that lets them move into max range and attack us (or just sitting in the back not moving and summoning an army of living bones or splitting into a bunch of oozes).

We also learned early on that my combo of Scurry + Into the Night was great for opening doors, because we could decide after I opened the door whether I should go invisible in the doorway or move into the room.

But after that we learned that when everyone gathers at the door before I open it, then I normally have to stop in the doorway to keep the enemy from moving towards us. But if I open the door before my teammates have even gotten close to the door, then I could move in towards the enemies and probably get off a decent 4 damage melee attack, and it would make the enemy melee units move towards us still.

When I was going invisible in the doorway, the enemy ranged units would move towards us, while the enemy melee guys stayed still. This resulted in them being more clumped together, which is easier for AoE, but also means they all attack us at the same time.

When my teammates stopped trying to get to the door before I opened it, the melee units would move past me towards the doorway, which meant that there would still be a gap between them and the ranged units. This made it safer for my teammates to attack the enemy melee units, and also made it easier for me to continue on towards the enemies in the back of the room without having to worry about any of the guys in the front of the room turning around and heading for me. This basically let my 3 teammates handle the melee guys at the front of the room without having to worry about the guys in the back attacking them, especially when I'm in the back using Fearsome Blade (enhanced with Immobilize), Hostile Takeover, and Perverse Edge on the guys in the back.

It's an extremely common setup in the rooms that the melee units are at the front and the ranged units are at the back. With our starting four having 3 ranged damage dealers and my Mindthief, we figured out a great strategy for handling this.
 
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Robert Stewart
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gabrielrockman1 wrote:
There are a lot of situations where there is some ranged guy in the back (or some guy that summons) that will be a pain if he's ignored, and that's where the Mindthief is best equipped to go after and deal with these pains. None of the other starting classes can effectively do this.


Scoundrel's also pretty good at going after an isolated pain - move 5 and 6 cards, attacks that get bonuses against isolated targets, a mix of very early and very late initiatives, and a one-shot invisibility. The biggest weakness is being unable to jump/fly to bypass the front line, but if there's an opening, you can run in, get 2 solid attacks, and disengage between two of their actions.
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Gabriel Rockman
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rmsgrey wrote:
gabrielrockman1 wrote:
There are a lot of situations where there is some ranged guy in the back (or some guy that summons) that will be a pain if he's ignored, and that's where the Mindthief is best equipped to go after and deal with these pains. None of the other starting classes can effectively do this.


Scoundrel's also pretty good at going after an isolated pain - move 5 and 6 cards, attacks that get bonuses against isolated targets, a mix of very early and very late initiatives, and a one-shot invisibility. The biggest weakness is being unable to jump/fly to bypass the front line, but if there's an opening, you can run in, get 2 solid attacks, and disengage between two of their actions.


It's true, the Scoundrel has even better initiative control, even better movement, and even better single target damage than the Mindthief (and only some of it is based on adjacency bonuses). But what they lack is a more repeatable invisibility (until level 3) and effective crowd control actions. The Scoundrel is more about killing, poisoning, and wounding (and pulling), whereas the Mindthief is more about stunning, disarming, immobilizing, muddling, and pushing.

In particular, Perverse Edge one turn followed by Frigid Apparition the next turn is a vicious combo to use to neutralize a threat.

Scoundrel really just relies on killing things to neutralize the threat (which is easy against normal enemies, but it can be harder against elites).
 
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Robert Stewart
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gabrielrockman1 wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
gabrielrockman1 wrote:
There are a lot of situations where there is some ranged guy in the back (or some guy that summons) that will be a pain if he's ignored, and that's where the Mindthief is best equipped to go after and deal with these pains. None of the other starting classes can effectively do this.


Scoundrel's also pretty good at going after an isolated pain - move 5 and 6 cards, attacks that get bonuses against isolated targets, a mix of very early and very late initiatives, and a one-shot invisibility. The biggest weakness is being unable to jump/fly to bypass the front line, but if there's an opening, you can run in, get 2 solid attacks, and disengage between two of their actions.


It's true, the Scoundrel has even better initiative control, even better movement, and even better single target damage than the Mindthief (and only some of it is based on adjacency bonuses). But what they lack is a more repeatable invisibility (until level 3) and effective crowd control actions. The Scoundrel is more about killing, poisoning, and wounding (and pulling), whereas the Mindthief is more about stunning, disarming, immobilizing, muddling, and pushing.

In particular, Perverse Edge one turn followed by Frigid Apparition the next turn is a vicious combo to use to neutralize a threat.

Scoundrel really just relies on killing things to neutralize the threat (which is easy against normal enemies, but it can be harder against elites).


Back-row threats are often reasonably fragile even at elite, so killing them makes a pretty effective approach. And if killing isn't the objective, then the Scoundrel can do a pretty good job of running past the enemies and picking up whatever the objectives are.

They take different approaches, and specialise in different things, but both Mindthief and Scoundrel can do well at ruining the back row's day while other characters fight their way past the front line troops.
 
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