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Subject: First Player? rss

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Matthew Simpson
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Can you rotate who the first player is when you start a new scene?

For example - Scene 2: You see the enemies that are facing you, then determine the best person to act first?
 
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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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Nope. Player order is set at the beginning of the game. You can chose your order then, but once you’re set, you’re stuck with that order for the rest of the adventure.
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Steven Desmond
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One of the differences in the Quick-Start rules was that you could decide who acted first after placing all the other setup items (ie after revealing encounters). The main adventures have a different rule where you must decide before.

If you wish to have your own house variant where before scene 1 you can choose, that's up to you. After scene 1 you should really continue on from wherever you reached before the scene ended (which you can have some control over if you delay ending a scene).
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Steve Beeman
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You in fact can't do this because of the way the dragonfire cards are played and how you sometimes want to bury the one you are on or wait until the next one comes out just to get more cards.
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Principia

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No. The first player is considered Party Leader and is not intended to change. That's why there's a Feature that's designed to change who that starting player is, Fate's Hand, at 40 XP.

Fate’s Hand

Once per game: At the start of the Dragonfire phase, move the Dragonfire deck one player to the left. (That player is now the party leader.)
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Steve Beeman
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Principia wrote:
No. The first player is considered Party Leader and is not intended to change. That's why there's a Feature that's designed to change who that starting player is, Fate's Hand, at 40 XP.

Fate’s Hand

Once per game: At the start of the Dragonfire phase, move the Dragonfire deck one player to the left. (That player is now the party leader.)


Ooh! I haven't seen that feature yet. That's handy at higher levels I'm sure.
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Barry
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One rule I missed was that when the scene is over, you don't go back to the start player. After dealing out the new scene's encounters you proceed with the next character to the left (does not matter if it is the start player).

This leads to some interesting plays for determining who finishes off the last encounter. Sometimes it is best to continue a few more characters to get some more card drawing replenish phases in before the next scene.
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Principia

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Nachofan wrote:
One rule I missed was that when the scene is over, you don't go back to the start player.


Oh wow, yeah, that could have been making a huge difference for you if you've been starting every scene from the start player, especially in 3 or 4 player games, where you can also try to time scene ends to giving as many players turns as possible before the start player gets another turn, sparing your party another Dragonfire card for at least a little while.
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Steve Beeman
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Yeah, like ending with the wizard going next "could" be bad if they don't have enough cards to take care of whatever they would draw next scene.
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Matthew Simpson
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Awesome thoughts! Thanks!
 
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Rick Pufky
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Principia wrote:
Nachofan wrote:
One rule I missed was that when the scene is over, you don't go back to the start player.


Oh wow, yeah, that could have been making a huge difference for you if you've been starting every scene from the start player, especially in 3 or 4 player games, where you can also try to time scene ends to giving as many players turns as possible before the start player gets another turn, sparing your party another Dragonfire card for at least a little while.


Definitely a very important rule, especially in Shadowrun Crossfire. Glad to see that tidbit stays around for Dragonfire as well. We've definitely used that trick to great effect previously.
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Narciso Jaramillo
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Unfortunately that point isn't really clear in the rulebook. It's implied at various points, but there's also a part where it says that when a scene ends, the round immediately ends, which would suggest that the next scene starts with the party leader. It's not really clear in the turn summary either.

It would have been nice if there were just a line somewhere that said "After the short rest, the next scene begins with the next player in turn order after the player whose turn ended the last Scene."
 
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Steve Beeman
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notwebsafe wrote:

It would have been nice if there were just a line somewhere that said "After the short rest, the next scene begins with the next player in turn order after the player whose turn ended the last Scene."


I'm actually pretty sure it does indeed say that explicitly.
 
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Narciso Jaramillo
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I'll look again, but I couldn't find it. There's lots of wording that implies it, but I didn't see it explicitly stated, and the line about the round immediately ending when the scene ends seems to contradict it.
 
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Steve Beeman
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Rulebook pg. 23 says: wrote:
7. End Turn
At the end of your turn, check to determine whether all encounters are defeated. If so, the Scene ends; move to the short rest (see below).

Short Rest

A Scene... Once the player who finished the Scene has fully completed their turn, including their regular Market purchase(s), a Short Rest begins. In other words, a Short Rest is not part of any Scene, round, or turn.


So after the short rest you just continue to the next person, since a short rest isn't part of any play, it's just in between turns. The scene is the only thing that ends if all encounter are defeated (not the round).
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Narciso Jaramillo
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That doesn't say that the round doesn't end - it just says that the short rest isn't part of a round. Given that elsewhere in the rulebook it says that the round ends at the end of a scene (and that in the round order steps they list "end scene" after "end of round"), this doesn't say explicitly enough (IMO) that you keep going with the next player.

At this point I'm really just complaining about the rulebook though - it seems clear from other wording in the rulebook (like the discussion of the Dragonfire card only changing on the first player's turn, not necessarily at scene start) what the intent is. It just feels like they missed several opportunities to clarify it.

Actually, I think the main problem is that they talk about "rounds" at all. I think in their mind the start of a new scene *is* the start of a new "round" - it just doesn't start with the party leader. (I think that's what I find confusing, since in other games a "round" is a complete set of turns, from first player to last.)

Since nothing special happens at "end of round" (I think) and the Dragonfire card is tied to the party leader, it probably would have been simpler for them to just say that people keep taking turns in order, you check for scene transition at the end of each turn, and you pull a new Dragonfire card at the beginning of the party leader's turn - without talking about rounds at all.
 
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Steve Beeman
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Where does it say the end of the scene is the end of the round? I copy pasted the rulebook for that section about end of a scene and it didn't.
 
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Narciso Jaramillo
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Page 2: "At the end of any player's turn, if all encounters have been defeated, the round immediately ends - that Scene has been completed."

The paragraph immediately before that says "At the end of the round, discard the face-up Dragonfire card on top of that deck, ... Then the party leader starts the next round by taking their turn." This suggests that all rounds start with the party leader. So if you combine this with a literal reading of the first quote (which says the round ends when a scene is completed), it seems to suggest that the next scene also starts with a new round, which starts with the party leader.

Later in the rulebook, they make it clear that the Dragonfire discard/new Dragonfire card is tied to the party leader's turn, and that that can happen separately from a scene ending (though they don't explicitly disavow the "round ends when a scene ends" text, and don't clearly explain that the next turn after the scene ends is just whoever is next in turn order). Which is why I think the real problem is that they use the term "round" inconsistently, and it would be better if they just got rid of it.

(The nesting of the "Start/End Round" steps within the "Start/End Scene" steps on page 10 also add to the confusion, imo, since that also tends to suggest that a round fits within scene boundaries. The footnote after that also says "the end of a round will often no longer coincide with revealing a Dragonfire card", which seems to suggest that they really want "round" to mean "every player taking a turn after the scene starts", not "every player taking a turn starting with the party leader", but that's really confusing.)
 
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B C Z
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Quote:
WHEN TO END A SCENE
There are times when players will be in a position to choose when
they’ll end a Scene. Sometimes it’s worth spending most of the
cards in players’ hands to ensure you end a Scene before you move
up a Dragonfire level. However, there may be other situations when
it’s better to go another round so everyone can draw cards and be
prepared for the next Scene. Or players could end the Scene before
the next Dragonfire card moves into the discard. However, if they end
the round right after the Dragonfire activates then they’ll play most
of the next Scene without a Dragonfire card.
There’s plenty of great
ways to manipulate ending the Scene for the best effect.


It's a sidebar, but it's pretty clear.
 
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Narciso Jaramillo
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Yeah, there are a number of places that imply what the real rule is. It's just a shame that they didn't state it more clearly and explicitly in the various places where they describe the scene/round order.

(I also feel like the overall organization of the rulebook is wrong, but I think I've bitched enough for one thread )
 
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Steve Beeman
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I guess I see what you're saying, but I never questioned it because there was enough evidence concerning the behavior of the scene and dragonfire deck if you end it before the end of the round that the part you refer to was way back in my mind.
 
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