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Subject: Ageless Apprentice Vs Ageless (Spoilers) rss

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Jessie Christian
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With the 1.5 changes to Ageless regarding Saviors, I'm wondering if it's possible for a Savior to use Ageless Apprentice the secret fighting art. It seems like the White Secret story event prevents a Savior who has the Ageless Ability to use Ageless anyway, but is that restrictive to that ability only. What is stopping a Savior from using Ageless Apprentice?

Now I know people would say that you need your Savior to gain the Hideous Disguise rare gear and then Death blow the Lion Knight. From the FAQ, Saviors are exempt from gaining "other" gear so this is moot, but I think of a few loopholes that allow you to skirt this, as well as a way to get rid of the Hideous Disguise in 1.5. I won't go into to much of the nitty gritty, but the end result is a Savior with Ageless Apprentice. So the prevailing question would the be able to use this Fighting Art, since it isn't the ability Ageless. I will say that you rly only do this once maybe twice a campaign, so I wouldn't hold too much stock in the outcome. However, a Green Savior with Ageless Apprentice would make some really powerful broken stuff in this game.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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So, you should actually share the nitty-gritty.
 
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Jessie Christian
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So these steps require you to be using the Manhunter, Lion Knight, and Lonely Tree Expansions as well as have taken Survival of the Fittest. You don't really need it, but the rerolls help.

1. Beat the Lvl 1 Lion Knight, and gain the Hideous Disguise Rare Gear. You will need a 6+ on the Intermission Story Event, so rerolls help.

2. Beat the Lvl 2 Manhunter and gain the Hunter's Heart Rare Gear.

3. The Hideous Disguise is cursed, so that Survivor has to wear it always, so bring that Survivor out against the Lvl 2 Lion Knight. Make sure that survivor wounds the death blow and kills the monster. This Automatically gives him Ageless Apprentice. You will perform Intermisssion again, but if you gain another Hideous Disguise, it's a duplicate so only need to worry about the cursed keyword once.

4. Farm the Tree for Savior Fruit. I'm not too certain how this works, but if I recall the Drifting Dream Fruit is a drop from the Tree during the showdown. More than likely it's from his Lvl 3 version. You can acquire multiple Lonely Fruits, so multiple showdowns with the tree.

5. Your Survivor must die holding the Hunter's Heart. Now you might be asking why, and the answer is simple. The Hideous Disguise is cursed and other gear so if you eat the fruit and become a Savior, you would not be able to depart. But if you die, you can lose the cursed gear, and be brought back to life with the Hunter's Heart. From what I've seen most people resolve this during the settlement phase, and other survivors can use their rerolls to get the 7+ result required for the Heart to regrow you. In this step I would try and avoid too many severe injuries, and opt for a death on the hunt or bleeding out.

To me, the Heart itself is unclear in how it regrows you. Does it regrow you to the state you were in prior to death, do you keep the fighting arts you had before you die? I would say yes, but the wording on the Heart is decidedly vague. One thing is certain, the Heart allows you get rid of cursed items and potentially revive yourself without them. An alternative to step 5 is to have that survivor gain the Crystal Skin ability. I read somewhere in 1.5, the Crystal Skin Ability lets you ignore cursed on items. So rerolls here will be helpful, but this is less likely then the Heart method.

6. Eat the Fruit. Your Survior who no longer wears a Hideous Disguise and has Ageless Apprentice, as become a Savior. I would go Green, but Blue is also really fun to think about. All those Crits!!! Depending upon how many times you fight the Lion Knight, you have maybe 1-2 times you can pull something like this off. I wouldnt recommend anyone attempt to do this. Maybe if a few things go your way, if you can get past step 3, then by all means go for it!!

But this comes back to my original question. If a Savior gained Ageless Apprentice would they be able to use this Fighting Art?
 
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Nicholas Vaccaro
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No. Good talk.

In all seriousness though, if you want to cheese the game go right ahead. It's your campaign. However, it is unbearably obvious that the intent of the rules is for saviors to have neither "other" gear nor ageless abilities.

Play to the letter or play to the spirit. The choice is yours.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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silver316 wrote:
So these steps require you to be using the Manhunter, Lion Knight, and Lonely Tree Expansions as well as have taken Survival of the Fittest. You don't really need it, but the rerolls help.

1. Beat the Lvl 1 Lion Knight, and gain the Hideous Disguise Rare Gear. You will need a 6+ on the Intermission Story Event, so rerolls help.

2. Beat the Lvl 2 Manhunter and gain the Hunter's Heart Rare Gear.

3. The Hideous Disguise is cursed, so that Survivor has to wear it always, so bring that Survivor out against the Lvl 2 Lion Knight. Make sure that survivor wounds the death blow and kills the monster. This Automatically gives him Ageless Apprentice. You will perform Intermisssion again, but if you gain another Hideous Disguise, it's a duplicate so only need to worry about the cursed keyword once.

4. Farm the Tree for Savior Fruit. I'm not too certain how this works, but if I recall the Drifting Dream Fruit is a drop from the Tree during the showdown. More than likely it's from his Lvl 3 version. You can acquire multiple Lonely Fruits, so multiple showdowns with the tree.

5. Your Survivor must die holding the Hunter's Heart. Now you might be asking why, and the answer is simple. The Hideous Disguise is cursed and other gear so if you eat the fruit and become a Savior, you would not be able to depart. But if you die, you can lose the cursed gear, and be brought back to life with the Hunter's Heart. From what I've seen most people resolve this during the settlement phase, and other survivors can use their rerolls to get the 7+ result required for the Heart to regrow you. In this step I would try and avoid too many severe injuries, and opt for a death on the hunt or bleeding out.

To me, the Heart itself is unclear in how it regrows you. Does it regrow you to the state you were in prior to death, do you keep the fighting arts you had before you die? I would say yes, but the wording on the Heart is decidedly vague. One thing is certain, the Heart allows you get rid of cursed items and potentially revive yourself without them. An alternative to step 5 is to have that survivor gain the Crystal Skin ability. I read somewhere in 1.5, the Crystal Skin Ability lets you ignore cursed on items. So rerolls here will be helpful, but this is less likely then the Heart method.

6. Eat the Fruit. Your Survior who no longer wears a Hideous Disguise and has Ageless Apprentice, as become a Savior. I would go Green, but Blue is also really fun to think about. All those Crits!!! Depending upon how many times you fight the Lion Knight, you have maybe 1-2 times you can pull something like this off. I wouldnt recommend anyone attempt to do this. Maybe if a few things go your way, if you can get past step 3, then by all means go for it!!

But this comes back to my original question. If a Savior gained Ageless Apprentice would they be able to use this Fighting Art?


So, not technically a Savior, he just gets savior abilities. Yeah, that would work RAW, exactly like the other savior tricks fen posted a few weeks ago. At the moment, there are a few holes that could be exploited here and there.

Since you don't pass by "Birth of a Savior", you are not technically a savior, so you just apply the rules from the dream onward.

For instance, does this savior count towards the settlement savior limit?

Anyway, it's likely that Adam will publish hotfixes to these rules, especially since the lonely tree should have received the typo treatment.
 
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Biff Drinkwater
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I'm not sure I followed that 100%, but your process requires getting a savior early on in a SotF playthrough and then additionally having a bunch of rolls go your way, right? Seems like you'd have to be very lucky to pull it off, even with rerolls.
 
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Jessie Christian
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t3clis wrote:
silver316 wrote:
So these steps require you to be using the Manhunter, Lion Knight, and Lonely Tree Expansions as well as have taken Survival of the Fittest. You don't really need it, but the rerolls help.

1. Beat the Lvl 1 Lion Knight, and gain the Hideous Disguise Rare Gear. You will need a 6+ on the Intermission Story Event, so rerolls help.

2. Beat the Lvl 2 Manhunter and gain the Hunter's Heart Rare Gear.

3. The Hideous Disguise is cursed, so that Survivor has to wear it always, so bring that Survivor out against the Lvl 2 Lion Knight. Make sure that survivor wounds the death blow and kills the monster. This Automatically gives him Ageless Apprentice. You will perform Intermisssion again, but if you gain another Hideous Disguise, it's a duplicate so only need to worry about the cursed keyword once.

4. Farm the Tree for Savior Fruit. I'm not too certain how this works, but if I recall the Drifting Dream Fruit is a drop from the Tree during the showdown. More than likely it's from his Lvl 3 version. You can acquire multiple Lonely Fruits, so multiple showdowns with the tree.

5. Your Survivor must die holding the Hunter's Heart. Now you might be asking why, and the answer is simple. The Hideous Disguise is cursed and other gear so if you eat the fruit and become a Savior, you would not be able to depart. But if you die, you can lose the cursed gear, and be brought back to life with the Hunter's Heart. From what I've seen most people resolve this during the settlement phase, and other survivors can use their rerolls to get the 7+ result required for the Heart to regrow you. In this step I would try and avoid too many severe injuries, and opt for a death on the hunt or bleeding out.

To me, the Heart itself is unclear in how it regrows you. Does it regrow you to the state you were in prior to death, do you keep the fighting arts you had before you die? I would say yes, but the wording on the Heart is decidedly vague. One thing is certain, the Heart allows you get rid of cursed items and potentially revive yourself without them. An alternative to step 5 is to have that survivor gain the Crystal Skin ability. I read somewhere in 1.5, the Crystal Skin Ability lets you ignore cursed on items. So rerolls here will be helpful, but this is less likely then the Heart method.

6. Eat the Fruit. Your Survior who no longer wears a Hideous Disguise and has Ageless Apprentice, as become a Savior. I would go Green, but Blue is also really fun to think about. All those Crits!!! Depending upon how many times you fight the Lion Knight, you have maybe 1-2 times you can pull something like this off. I wouldnt recommend anyone attempt to do this. Maybe if a few things go your way, if you can get past step 3, then by all means go for it!!

But this comes back to my original question. If a Savior gained Ageless Apprentice would they be able to use this Fighting Art?


So, not technically a Savior, he just gets savior abilities. Yeah, that would work RAW, exactly like the other savior tricks fen posted a few weeks ago. At the moment, there are a few holes that could be exploited here and there.

Since you don't pass by "Birth of a Savior", you are not technically a savior, so you just apply the rules from the dream onward.

For instance, does this savior count towards the settlement savior limit?

Anyway, it's likely that Adam will publish hotfixes to these rules, especially since the lonely tree should have received the typo treatment.


Well of you think about it, the only difference between a Savior and a Survivor is that the Savior is born with Abilities and an Affinity. If you played the game as written, a Savior who became hamstrung would not longer be able to use his abilities, would not be able to age out of existence and could wear other gear.

You are correct, I'm sure Adam will include an addendum to the fruit that you may only consume if no other Saviors exist in your settlement, but right now it's open season since you are bypassing intimacy to get to the Savior Result.

He should just say Saviors cannot use Ageless Apprentice, same as Ageless, since they do the same thing but are technically in different categories.
 
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Jessie Christian
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Gokufan wrote:
I'm not sure I followed that 100%, but your process requires getting a savior early on in a SotF playthrough and then additionally having a bunch of rolls go your way, right? Seems like you'd have to be very lucky to pull it off, even with rerolls.


You don't need a Savior initially. You become a Savior after you eat the fruit. You are a Survivor until step 6. The Survival of the Fittest helps because of reroll since some of this requires you to roll on charts to get certain results.
 
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Brad Johnson
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Couldn't you also use the Virus Flower from the flower knight instead of the heart to reincarnate?
 
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Jessie Christian
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SlaughterPriest wrote:
Couldn't you also use the Virus Flower from the flower knight instead of the heart to reincarnate?


I thought about this method as well. Straight from the FAQ,

"Effects that allow survivors to teach or pass fighting arts on to each other do not allow them to choose secret fighting arts unless specifically stated."

Since the fighting art is moving from one person to another, it would fall in the regime of passing the fighting art. Since all the Savior fighting Arts are secret fighting arts you wouldnt be able to pass them. You also don't gain the abilities of the dead survivor either with the flower. So in theory if this did work, you wouldn't have to worry about aging out of existence either.
 
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