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Subject: Trump at his finest, all over the map rss

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Andre
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/trump-missouri-speech...

Somewhat humorous, but proper take on Trumps incoherency.

Some of the things that pop out of this guys mouth still amazes me, even though I have become somewhat numb to it. It's like he spouts this stuff off without foresight, or without thinking about consequences (or goals), he just rattles off whatever drifts into his mind at the moment, then rambles about it.

Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
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fightcitymayor
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abadolato01 wrote:
Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
Early-stage dementia.
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Josh
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fightcitymayor wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
Early-stage dementia.


Not-so-early
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Mac Mcleod
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fightcitymayor wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
Early-stage dementia.


My mom had this...

Basically she had delusions but also recognized that she shouldn't talk about them. But if you ever gave her an opening she would gush about them from the pressure of not talking about them all the time.

She was still functional and sharp in many areas but she had irrational beliefs (people in airplanes were watching her).

I think he has some kind of sundowner syndrome and has irrational beliefs (it wasn't him on the tape saying he groped women). But it might also be extreme narcissism or fragility which can't deal with anything that makes him feel bad.

In any case, he lacks the temperament to be president.
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Pontifex Maximus
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fightcitymayor wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
Early-stage dementia.


NY Daily News is rather more to the point

Quote:
Donald Trump is a madman: The President's Wednesday Twitter spasm confirms what many Americans have long suspected


http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/donald-trump-madman-artic...


A little less scientific, but sums up the situation quite nicely
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Walt
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Shadrach wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
Early-stage dementia.

Not-so-early

Yeah. I think "spoiled brat" works pretty well. He's never in adult life had to (or been able to) operate with equals socially; just kiss up to his father. He's wanted to be part of the NY rich guy's club, but they see him for the brat he is: "Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Know."* "Sad!" (*Lord Byron died at 36, way too early for senile dementia.)

His father died of Alzheimer's, but I don't see any symptoms that aren't equally consistent with just being a brat and a bully with no training or inclination for long term tasks.

It would not be hard to test for Alz. or similar diseases: an early symptom is loss of smell, at least for particular things. But, I don't see him eating hot (spicy, like capsaicin) foods, which can be a way to make foods have "taste" when your sense of smell is gone.
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Josh
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maxo-texas wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Is there a scientific term for this incoherency, other than 'incoherent'?
Early-stage dementia.


My mom had this...

Basically she had delusions but also recognized that she shouldn't talk about them. But if you ever gave her an opening she would gush about them from the pressure of not talking about them all the time.

She was still functional and sharp in many areas but she had irrational beliefs (people in airplanes were watching her).

I think he has some kind of sundowner syndrome and has irrational beliefs (it wasn't him on the tape saying he groped women). But it might also be extreme narcissism or fragility which can't deal with anything that makes him feel bad.

In any case, he lacks the temperament to be president.


I think you are seeing here the collision between Dementia and a lifelong narcissistic disassociative disorder. He can't hknestly discern his made up world from the real one anymore.
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Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.
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SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


What does he think Trump has? Or is it just 'asshole' syndrome?
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Jeff Brown
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SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


Do you have a link? I would be interested in his reasoning.
 
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Tall_Walt wrote:
His father died of Alzheimer's, but I don't see any symptoms that aren't equally consistent with just being a brat and a bully with no training or inclination for long term tasks.


He's walked away from signing EOs to where Pence either grabbed him to remind him, or simply grabbed the EO to have him sign it elsewhere. He couldn't find Rudy despite the fact that he was literally across the table and implied he thought the guy sitting next to him was Rudy. He has walked off a plane, stood by the Secret Service near his limo, and then simply walked away only to have someone grab him and direct him back towards the limo. He has a known history of wandering around, see the debates and people wondering why.

My grandmother had Alzheimer's bad enough she forgot she's been to McD's years ago or has ever tried ketchup with fries and now has a hard time remembering her own kids. I get distinct flashbacks listing to Trump speak. I know Drunk Trump meme was a thing at one point, but I honestly can see his speech going that way.
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jeff brown wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


Do you have a link? I would be interested in his reasoning.


Took me a bit to find it. Here it is

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illn...

The big key is that to qualify for a mental illness you have to exhibit personal distress and/or impairment, none of which Trump seems to exhibit.

Confusing Trump’s behavior with mental illness unfairly stigmatizes those who are truly mentally ill, underestimates his considerable cunning, and misdirects our efforts at future harm reduction. And the three most frequent armchair diagnoses made for Trump — narcissistic personality disorder, delusional disorder, and dementia — are all badly misinformed.

And, I think there is definitely some truth in the last paragraph

I believe that Trump is a mirror of the American soul, a surface symptom of our deeper societal disease. He may not be crazy, but we certainly were for electing him. We mustn’t waste this Trumpian dark age. If we don’t learn from it, we will keep making the same mistakes.
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SpaceGhost wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


Do you have a link? I would be interested in his reasoning.


Took me a bit to find it. Here it is

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illn...

The big key is that to qualify for a mental illness you have to exhibit personal distress and/or impairment, none of which Trump seems to exhibit.

Confusing Trump’s behavior with mental illness unfairly stigmatizes those who are truly mentally ill, underestimates his considerable cunning, and misdirects our efforts at future harm reduction. And the three most frequent armchair diagnoses made for Trump — narcissistic personality disorder, delusional disorder, and dementia — are all badly misinformed.

And, I think there is definitely some truth in the last paragraph

I believe that Trump is a mirror of the American soul, a surface symptom of our deeper societal disease. He may not be crazy, but we certainly were for electing him. We mustn’t waste this Trumpian dark age. If we don’t learn from it, we will keep making the same mistakes.


Quote:
Frances: Well, Trump is absolutely a world-class narcissist. He has every criteria met except for two. In addition to having the features of being grandiose, unempathic, self-involved, selfish, all the things that go into being Trump, you have to have distress or impairment, significant distress or impairment.
Trump is a man who causes immense distress in others, but doesn't seem to experience it very much himself. Although he's created tremendous impairment for our country and for his business colleagues, he, himself, has been very well rewarded in politics and also in business for being a narcissist. I think that it's reckless for people to attribute the damage he's causing to mental illness. He's much more bad than mad.


So he's worse than that. great.
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lfisher wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


Do you have a link? I would be interested in his reasoning.


Took me a bit to find it. Here it is

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illn...

The big key is that to qualify for a mental illness you have to exhibit personal distress and/or impairment, none of which Trump seems to exhibit.

Confusing Trump’s behavior with mental illness unfairly stigmatizes those who are truly mentally ill, underestimates his considerable cunning, and misdirects our efforts at future harm reduction. And the three most frequent armchair diagnoses made for Trump — narcissistic personality disorder, delusional disorder, and dementia — are all badly misinformed.

And, I think there is definitely some truth in the last paragraph

I believe that Trump is a mirror of the American soul, a surface symptom of our deeper societal disease. He may not be crazy, but we certainly were for electing him. We mustn’t waste this Trumpian dark age. If we don’t learn from it, we will keep making the same mistakes.


Quote:
Frances: Well, Trump is absolutely a world-class narcissist. He has every criteria met except for two. In addition to having the features of being grandiose, unempathic, self-involved, selfish, all the things that go into being Trump, you have to have distress or impairment, significant distress or impairment.
Trump is a man who causes immense distress in others, but doesn't seem to experience it very much himself. Although he's created tremendous impairment for our country and for his business colleagues, he, himself, has been very well rewarded in politics and also in business for being a narcissist. I think that it's reckless for people to attribute the damage he's causing to mental illness. He's much more bad than mad.


So he's worse than that. great.


Yes. Narcissist, but not narcissistic personality disorder. Seems likely a quibbling distinction, but one that is likely important as it speaks to calculation and cunning.

For sake of argument, I went to a conference last summer where it was argued that he couldn't be as bad as people say because of the relationships he still maintains with his children. It definitely bucks the trend in people who have extreme narcissists for parents.
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Walt
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lfisher wrote:
Quote:
Frances: Well, Trump is absolutely a world-class narcissist. He has every criteria met except for two. In addition to having the features of being grandiose, unempathic, self-involved, selfish, all the things that go into being Trump, you have to have distress or impairment, significant distress or impairment.
Trump is a man who causes immense distress in others, but doesn't seem to experience it very much himself. Although he's created tremendous impairment for our country and for his business colleagues, he, himself, has been very well rewarded in politics and also in business for being a narcissist. I think that it's reckless for people to attribute the damage he's causing to mental illness. He's much more bad than mad.


So he's worse than that. great.

An interesting point is whether he could mask his symptoms due to his personality. He loathes weakness, so distress could be buried, undetectable; maybe that's a life-long habit: he's certainly insecure. Impairment can be simply masked by insisting he meant to do whatever he did, even if he doesn't remember it; self-contradiction isn't exactly new ground for him.

I'm reminded of someone who masked significant mental impairment by obsessively keeping to-do lists.
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This is a point of debate within psychiatry: to be a mental illness, must there be personal distress? The stock answer is that the so-called Axis I illnesses (psychosis, major depression, anxiety disorder, etc.) do have distress (“egodystonic”), but that the personality disorders (Axis II) can be egosyntonic, esp. narcissistic PD, and the distress is generated in the others that are in the orbit of the person with the personality D/O. To use a bit of psychiatric reductio ad absurdam, many serial murderers are perfectly egosyntonic, which has led to debates regarding whether there truly is a distinction between mental illness and evil.

As a tangential aside, in bipolar disorder the depressive aspects are egodystonic while the manic phase is generally egosyntonic, though intolerable for those around the manic person.
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Back to Trump per se: I’d be interested in how one could distinguish between narcissistic personality disorder vs. the extreme sense of entitlement one could have from perpetually existing at the very tip-top of human privilege?
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SpaceGhost wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


Do you have a link? I would be interested in his reasoning.


Took me a bit to find it. Here it is

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illn...

The big key is that to qualify for a mental illness you have to exhibit personal distress and/or impairment, none of which Trump seems to exhibit.

Confusing Trump’s behavior with mental illness unfairly stigmatizes those who are truly mentally ill, underestimates his considerable cunning, and misdirects our efforts at future harm reduction. And the three most frequent armchair diagnoses made for Trump — narcissistic personality disorder, delusional disorder, and dementia — are all badly misinformed.

And, I think there is definitely some truth in the last paragraph

I believe that Trump is a mirror of the American soul, a surface symptom of our deeper societal disease. He may not be crazy, but we certainly were for electing him. We mustn’t waste this Trumpian dark age. If we don’t learn from it, we will keep making the same mistakes.


Some interesting iddas, but I think we do see signs of significant distress in Trump. He is a world class attention seeker, not merely in a self confidant narcissistic way, but in a desperwte self-validation way. His constant need to have how good he is re-upoed and the very real anger and distress he exhibits when he doesn't get what he needs seem like they could slot into an armchair diagnosis pretty well.
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Shadrach wrote:
Some interesting iddas, but I think we do see signs of significant distress in Trump. He is a world class attention seeker, not merely in a self confidant narcissistic way, but in a desperwte self-validation way. His constant need to have how good he is re-upoed and the very real anger and distress he exhibits when he doesn't get what he needs seem like they could slot into an armchair diagnosis pretty well.

Reportedly, Trump didn't really care much that Tillerson called him a moron, but he was very upset (and humiliated?) when it became public that Tillerson called him a moron. I'm reminded of a description of someone else that his self-worth was what he could convince others to believe it was; this pre-dates Trump in politics.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Some interesting iddas, but I think we do see signs of significant distress in Trump. He is a world class attention seeker, not merely in a self confidant narcissistic way, but in a desperwte self-validation way. His constant need to have how good he is re-upoed and the very real anger and distress he exhibits when he doesn't get what he needs seem like they could slot into an armchair diagnosis pretty well.

Reportedly, Trump didn't really care much that Tillerson called him a moron, but he was very upset (and humiliated?) when it became public that Tillerson called him a moron. I'm reminded of a description of someone else that his self-worth was what he could convince others to believe it was; this pre-dates Trump in politics.


Very true, I think being in Politics just puts pressure on his weak points. When you're Mr. 80's Businessman who can throw money around, have yes men, and get bailed out while living in a penthouse with a golden potty your tender ego is well coddled. You step into the political area and... shit's on fire yo.

There's also the fact that Trump's behavior 'inhibiting' him could well be heavily masked by the support staff his life of money has built up around him. He is isolated from his failures. Open Two Casinos across form each other? No problem! Someone else's Money!
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Jeff Brown
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SpaceGhost wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Interestingly, the person who developed the diagnostic scheme for narcissistic personality disorder does not think that Trump has it.


Do you have a link? I would be interested in his reasoning.


Took me a bit to find it. Here it is

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illn...

The big key is that to qualify for a mental illness you have to exhibit personal distress and/or impairment, none of which Trump seems to exhibit.

Confusing Trump’s behavior with mental illness unfairly stigmatizes those who are truly mentally ill, underestimates his considerable cunning, and misdirects our efforts at future harm reduction. And the three most frequent armchair diagnoses made for Trump — narcissistic personality disorder, delusional disorder, and dementia — are all badly misinformed.

And, I think there is definitely some truth in the last paragraph

I believe that Trump is a mirror of the American soul, a surface symptom of our deeper societal disease. He may not be crazy, but we certainly were for electing him. We mustn’t waste this Trumpian dark age. If we don’t learn from it, we will keep making the same mistakes.


Thank you for finding that. I find that very interesting. I also agree that his apparent relationships with his kids don't fit the pattern for those who typically have NPD.

I agree that he is a reflection of the American soul right now. That's the very reason that even if we somehow survive his presidency I don't think we are going to survive what we've become as an american people. If he somehow gets impeached or something like that we still are in big trouble just for who we are, not for who he is.
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jeff brown wrote:
I agree that he is a reflection of the American soul right now. That's the very reason that even if we somehow survive his presidency I don't think we are going to survive what we've become as an american people. If he somehow gets impeached or something like that we still are in big trouble just for who we are, not for who he is.

He didn't even win the popular vote, and less than 60% of eligible voters didn't vote (about average). He's a reflection of part of America, the part that is very frustrated with their lives or with politicians. They aren't going to be less frustrated if the GOP tax bill passes--or if it fails.
 
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Tall_Walt wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that he is a reflection of the American soul right now. That's the very reason that even if we somehow survive his presidency I don't think we are going to survive what we've become as an american people. If he somehow gets impeached or something like that we still are in big trouble just for who we are, not for who he is.

He didn't even win the popular vote, and less than 60% of eligible voters didn't vote (about average). He's a reflection of part of America, the part that is very frustrated with their lives or with politicians. They aren't going to be less frustrated if the GOP tax bill passes--or if it fails.


I am very aware of what you say.

A rather large percentage of the population did vote for someone who is either crazy or just evil. That percentage is not going away.

This isn't to mention the issues that I have with the other side as well. Also not to mention the biggest problem with American culture which is that our tribalism has gotten so severe so that we hate each other.
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Invalid tweet.
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matthean wrote:
Invalid tweet.


Trump has control of the red button. This is so comforting.
 
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