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Subject: Town Item, Mutation, And Condition Cards rss

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Graham Martin
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If anyone has ready-made copies of town item, conditions, mutations, etc cards (like Klutz used to sell before he was asked to take them down) could you please PM me? I am desperate.

You see, I just started customizing this awesome game and I would like to use the cards to track this stuff. I have:

* Made my first foam core insert for the (in?)famous Hobby Lobby Artist Case.

* Had Staples print a copy of Klutz's awesome dividers.

* Painted all my minis.

* Found plastic purple aquarium crystals to use as dark stone tokens.

* Found plastic green aquarium crystals to use as corruptions tokens.

* Bought replica bullets to use as Grit tokens.

* Saved up old prescription bottles in which to keep bandage and whisky tokens.

* Found and posted about the spinner that can be used as a Prop Revolver (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1891993/gunslinger-prop-rev...).


All I want to do now is to have multiple sets of town item and mutation and condition cards, but my OCD shudders at the thought of manually creating them all, even WITH Klutz's awesome website.

Please...if you have ready-to-print sets I can send to Print Studio, please PM me! I beg of you. Please release my collecting / creating spirit from its mortal bonds so I can actually PLAY this game!

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Ben Turner
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I looked long and hard for a set (I printed them off before FFP issued the C&D notices) a while ago for a friend.

Afraid it was a long and fruitless search.
 
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Matthias B
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I would be interested too, have been looking for quite some time now ...
 
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Mark Pierce
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Me as well. I was hoping to print them during the recent sale, but it appears Flying Frog wasn't loving the community support so much. Klutz was doing some fantastic stuff for their product.
 
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B. C.
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I know some others who also would love to get some printed cards for the town items. Subbed to the thread just in case someone can help one way or another.

I get the reason for the C&D but boy are those cards great to have.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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I made sure to bring the Town Item card issue to Scott Hill's attention at the Wave 2 pickup event, despite not wanting them myself because I use character sheets to record items. Scott offered two reasons why Flying Frog isn't offering Town Item cards or allowing fans to do it themselves:

1.) It makes some content available that customers didn't pay for. I'll come up with my own example for this explanation: Other World expansions become much less attractive to customers if they've got the loot cards from a fan mod and some stretch goals monsters from the Kickstarter.

2.) Creating the Town Item Cards would mean paying an artist to illustrate them, and then paying to print off the cards. It was the difference between having a dozen illustrated Town Item cards or 40 (I'm estimating this number) Town Items because they were all detailed in charts without any cards. Flying Frog elected to give customers more variety. Extrapolating from Scott's statement, it's not a "one-and-done" solution. If Flying Frog had made illustrated cards for 40 items - since customers would clearly want both variety and cards - customers would have expected similar treatment for the Blasted Wastes, the Feudal Japanese village for Forbidden Fortress, etc; so the cost vs. variety argument gets pretty significant for Flying Frog.
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Klutz
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Autoduelist wrote:
I made sure to bring the Town Item card issue to Scott Hill's attention at the Wave 2 pickup event, despite not wanting them myself because I use character sheets to record items. Scott offered two reasons why Flying Frog isn't offering Town Item cards or allowing fans to do it themselves:

1.) It makes some content available that customers didn't pay for. I'll come up with my own example for this explanation: Other World expansions become much less attractive to customers if they've got the loot cards from a fan mod and some stretch goals monsters from the Kickstarter.

2.) Creating the Town Item Cards would mean paying an artist to illustrate them, and then paying to print off the cards. It was the difference between having a dozen illustrated Town Item cards or 40 (I'm estimating this number) Town Items because they were all detailed in charts without any cards. Flying Frog elected to give customers more variety. Extrapolating from Scott's statement, it's not a "one-and-done" solution. If Flying Frog had made illustrated cards for 40 items - since customers would clearly want both variety and cards - customers would have expected similar treatment for the Blasted Wastes, the Feudal Japanese village for Forbidden Fortress, etc; so the cost vs. variety argument gets pretty significant for Flying Frog.



I understand where FFP is coming from with that logic.

However, I think FFP is greatly underestimating the value players / customers place on the minis. I strongly doubt that releasing all the info for all the gear options from the different town expansions would have any measurable impact on sales.

For comparison, see FFG's LCGs and miniatures games.
- There's a fan made method of playing Android Netrunner online, for free, with all the cards. There are websites with literally all the cards listed.
- There's a fan made way of playing X-Wing The Miniatures Game online, for free, with all the ships. There are websites with literally all the cards listed.
- I'm sure the same is true for all their LCGs and minis games.

Yet FFG still makes a LOT of money from all their products, and I'd even argue that these online tools increase sales across the board.
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Scott Everts
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Thanks Neil for talking to them and telling us what their point of view is. I agree with Klutz, they are totally undervaluing the minis and other support materials. I buy this game for the whole package, not just a few cards. And I think that's the opinion of the vast majority of players of the game. This game is very, very expensive, so its definitely targeted at gamers with more disposable income. You buy miniature games for the table presence, theme, and immersion. Sure, you could replace all the minis with cardboard chits and it would work, but then, that would totally suck! And you'd still need the ref sheets, monster refs, game tiles, rulebooks, and the 1000+ other cards.

But, its their game and they can set whatever rules they want. I respect their decision. Maybe, someday, they will change their mind.
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Mike Flander
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FFP should print some... Almost guaranteed to sell as well as any other pack.
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Klutz
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mflander wrote:
FFP should print some... Almost guaranteed to sell as well as any other pack.


When they asked me to take my WIP ones down long ago, I was under the impression they might release a pack eventually.

But I guess not soblue
 
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Graham Martin
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Autoduelist wrote:
1.) It makes some content available that customers didn't pay for. I'll come up with my own example for this explanation: Other World expansions become much less attractive to customers if they've got the loot cards from a fan mod and some stretch goals monsters from the Kickstarter


I don't agree with their response AT ALL.

The cards we are talking about, here, are as follows:

1) Town items that you buy from lists of items on the town location charts from the base game or the Frontier Town expansion;

2) Mutations you get from the mutation chart from the base game;

3) Injury conditions you get from the injury chart from the base game; and

4) Madness conditions you get form the madness chart from the base game.

So...to use ANY of these, you have to have the charts to know 1) their purchase cost, 2) where you can buy them from, 4) any special rules regarding their acquisition, 4) which number to roll to get any given condition, mutation, etc.

In other words, you can't use the cards without having purchased a base game and the Frontier Town expansion!

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are no town charts/cards in Trederra, Derelict Ship, Cinder, etc. Even if there were, the could INCLUDE THOSE VERY FEW CARDS IN THE FREAKIN' EXPANSIONS.

So, either 1) they are idiots and don't understand that we are trying to throw money at them for something that can't be used without the game, or 2) they were just lying to you to get you off their back.

Either way, they suck.

Sorry, but FFP really annoys me sometimes. They are horrible at customer service and never respond to communication requests. When people DO get them to talk, they often lie or distract instead of "we just don't want to do that because we are busy making money on something else." As soon as they gave you that B.S. answer, they lose any moral high ground and we should all free to distribute these cards as we see fit.

God these FFP guys drive me batty. But...the game is a blast, damnit!
 
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Mark Llewellyn
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I managed to snag a set of printable cards from a user on the closed facebook group. As they were his design I don't really want to share them myself, but it may be best to start looking there....

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1471685729750432/
 
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Njorl
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Autoduelist wrote:
I made sure to bring the Town Item card issue to Scott Hill's attention at the Wave 2 pickup event, despite not wanting them myself because I use character sheets to record items. Scott offered two reasons why Flying Frog isn't offering Town Item cards or allowing fans to do it themselves:

1.) It makes some content available that customers didn't pay for. I'll come up with my own example for this explanation: Other World expansions become much less attractive to customers if they've got the loot cards from a fan mod and some stretch goals monsters from the Kickstarter.

2.) Creating the Town Item Cards would mean paying an artist to illustrate them, and then paying to print off the cards. It was the difference between having a dozen illustrated Town Item cards or 40 (I'm estimating this number) Town Items because they were all detailed in charts without any cards. Flying Frog elected to give customers more variety. Extrapolating from Scott's statement, it's not a "one-and-done" solution. If Flying Frog had made illustrated cards for 40 items - since customers would clearly want both variety and cards - customers would have expected similar treatment for the Blasted Wastes, the Feudal Japanese village for Forbidden Fortress, etc; so the cost vs. variety argument gets pretty significant for Flying Frog.


I love the town cards and have the near perfect quality cards from Philbarfly.
And here is how everyone can be happy(literally)
We should (100 or more of us) all chip $10 each to "pay" him for his artistic work, he plops it in a dropbox
The Frog's grab the images send it off to PrinterStudio for a bulk order and then "sell" it on their webstore(after they get the bulk discount.
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Klutz
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njep wrote:
I love the town cards and have the near perfect quality cards from Philbarfly.
And here is how everyone can be happy(literally)
We should (100 or more of us) all chip $10 each to "pay" him for his artistic work, he plops it in a dropbox
The Frog's grab the images send it off to PrinterStudio for a bulk order and then "sell" it on their webstore(after they get the bulk discount.


Yeeaaah.... I really don't see that happening.

Hell, if I was FFP I wouldn't do it.
 
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Njorl
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KevBelisle wrote:
njep wrote:
I love the town cards and have the near perfect quality cards from Philbarfly.
And here is how everyone can be happy(literally)
We should (100 or more of us) all chip $10 each to "pay" him for his artistic work, he plops it in a dropbox
The Frog's grab the images send it off to PrinterStudio for a bulk order and then "sell" it on their webstore(after they get the bulk discount.


Yeeaaah.... I really don't see that happening.

Hell, if I was FFP I wouldn't do it.


Most definitely, but you must admit that it addresses everything here

2.) Creating the Town Item Cards would mean paying an artist to illustrate them, and then paying to print off the cards. It was the difference between having a dozen illustrated Town Item cards or 40 (I'm estimating this number) Town Items because they were all detailed in charts without any cards. Flying Frog elected to give customers more variety. Extrapolating from Scott's statement, it's not a "one-and-done" solution. If Flying Frog had made illustrated cards for 40 items - since customers would clearly want both variety and cards - customers would have expected similar treatment for the Blasted Wastes, the Feudal Japanese village for Forbidden Fortress, etc; so the cost vs. variety argument gets pretty significant for Flying Frog.
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Neil Edmonds
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I'm just the messenger who asked a question on the community's behalf. I don't appreciate being subjected to the hostility via proxy for Flying Frog in a public forum. Take it up with Flying Frog if you've got a problem and leave me out of it.

There are items listed in charts in the Barter Town (Blasted Wastes). There will be items in Forbidden Fortress' Feudal Village. The Frontier Town expansion has items too, including items specific to certain types of towns.

You can use simple arithmetic to count the number of items requiring cards. I'd estimate an illustration from internet-sourced freelance artist would cost between $100 - $200 per illustration based on comments in other threads by ScottE, Vic Wertz from Paizo, etc for other games they worked on. In addition, it would create production delays as the artwork is being created, cards are laid out and printed, etc. all while Kickstarter backers are screaming at Flying Frog to complete the mine carts orders and deliver Wave 2.

In short, there were competing demands on the project that made the solution Flying Frog picked a reasonable compromise. Yes, there are people in the forums who are very passionate about wanting item cards; but several dozen people doesn't equate to all customers, so this is just one of the trade-offs made when producing a game.
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Klutz
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njep wrote:
KevBelisle wrote:
Yeeaaah.... I really don't see that happening.

Hell, if I was FFP I wouldn't do it.


Most definitely, but you must admit that it addresses everything here

[...]


The problems I see, no matter how good the fan made cards are:

- The cards don't use the exact card graphics FFP has (since no one outside FFP has access to them), so they would either be slightly different than the official cards, or FFP would have to redo a lot of the work.

- The information on the card might not be laid out the same way FFP would've done it (although, I'll grant you they're not the most consistent in their layouts in the first place...)

- Not all the artwork used is necessarily in the style or of the quality FFP wants.

- You have no idea where the artwork on said cards comes from - this is a big one for FFP, someone posting a card with random artwork they found off Google is one thing, a company selling a product with artwork they don't necessarily have the rights to is a whole other thing.

- It creates an expectation from customers that all future products will have similar cards, or that the card pack will be updated with every new product.

- It allows people to order just the card pack, without the expansion. FFP seems to think this is problematic.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Klutz
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Autoduelist wrote:
I'm just the messenger who asked a question on the community's behalf. I don't appreciate being subjected to the hostility via proxy for Flying Frog in a public forum. Take it up with Flying Frog if you've got a problem and leave me out of it.



I hope you didn't feel any hostility towards you in my reply, I thought I wrote it as being clearly directed at FFP, and not yourself. I'm sorry if I was clear enough about that.

I do appreciate you taking the time to ask FFP about it and sharing their response here!
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Nick Hughes
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It's a shame as I always thought FFP requesting the take down from PS etc was leading to them offering their own solution.

Putting aside Mutations, Injuries and Madness cards for a second I cannot see how having fan made Town Item (and by extension Blasted Wastes etc.) cards means a loss of control to FFP. It is such a small part of what is needed to play the game that having that "rule information" out there for all doesn't obviate the need for the rest of the game for them to be of use.

I'd argue that the pdf rulebook gives more game content away coupled with posted images around the net of hero rules and cards.

Thanks for asking and at least providing an idea of why FFP aren't pursuing it themselves.
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Scott Everts
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Neil, hope I didn't say anything that would cause grief. I value your initiative in talking to the Hills on our behalf.

As for costs, $100-200 is a fair price for boardgame illustration art. Though I've heard some pay as little as $50. There's a lot of people that get their art done outside the US and Europe where prices are lower. For our previous game, we hired video game illustrators that normally would get a higher price. Though they gave us a bit of a break!

We once were quoted $1000 an image for a game we worked on years ago (never was published). The art was amazing but this was way before Kickstarter and we were going to need 40 images so will shelved it. Though that was unusually high, but the artist had never done a card game so was just giving us his regular rate.
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Neil Edmonds
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Thanks

Scott Everts
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and

Klutz
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I didn't have any problems with your comments. You've both been staunch supporters of Shadows of Brimstone, providing insightful comments and cool fan mods to make the game better. Grahamers2002 tirade about the cards was bit much for me.

Klutz hit all the highlights regarding fan-provided art. There are additional issues to consider surrounding the other production aspects - printing and shipping - along with marketing concerns for distributors and retailers (what makes the Town Item SKU better than stocking other Shadows of Brimstone products), and the inevitable customer grief as some people take to the forums to complain about "paying extra to complete the set / this should be free." It also represents time away from other products: there's only so many hours in the day, and there's a reason expansions for A Touch of Evil, Fortune & Glory, and Last Night on Earth haven't been as frequent while Flying Frog was working on Brimstone.

ScottE's comments about pricing shows why it's a tough business to be an artist, you're competing against the entire world, including places with vastly different costs of living (and let's be honest, based on the quality of the work, some of those artists deserve more money.) A game that's loaded with high-quality artwork and miniatures at an industry standard prices means there's a greater than zero probability someone in the supply-chain provided a subsidy (intentional or not) to make it happen. Then forum users run with the newly minted game and hold it up as the gold standard for all publishers to live up to. And never mind all those games that promised nice things but failed to deliver once the realities of cost and time reared their heads. shake
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