Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
33 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Twilight Imperium: Fourth Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Sardakk N'orr - Exotrireme II and Sustain damage rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Sander Stroom
Estonia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
The text on Exotrireme II says:
Quote:
After a round of space combat you may destroy this unit to destroy up to 2 ships in this system.


There seems to be a conflict between Sustain Damage and Destroy rules:
Quote:
76.4 A unit can use its “Sustain Damage” ability any time a hit is produced against it. This includes hits produced during combat and from unit abilities such as the “Space Cannon” ability.

• A unit can only use the “Sustain Damage” ability if it is eligible to be hit. For example, a player cannot use a dreadnought’s “Sustain Damage” ability to cancel a hit from “Anti-Fighter Barrage.”

76.5 The “Sustain Damage” ability cannot be used to cancel an effect that directly destroys a unit.


What is the correct ruling here? Can one Exotrireme II destroy 2 War Suns? Or should it mean that it gets 2 "hits" to assign to opponents' ships?

I would say that it counts as 2 hits because the rule book mentions "destroy" everywhere where you would naturally allow the unit to use Sustain Damage. (Assigning hits in combat, PDS fire, Bombardment...)

Effects that directly destroy units? Which ones are those? Mostly the ones out of combat?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Schutte
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Correct Destroy is out right Destroy no chance to save. It is important to note who gets to pick what is destroyed different abilities have different rules. In your case the N'orr player gets to pick.

Hits are able to be saved/canceled via card play and Sustain Damage. Destroy doesn't equal two hits, it is just destroy (ie remove from play return to reserve).


See rules reference section 29. Destroyed for the exact rules
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jan Probst
Germany
Kiel
Schleswig Holstein
flag msg tools
Sande24 wrote:
Effects that directly destroy units? Which ones are those?


Getting a damn Dreadnought shoved in your face, for example. (Unlike getting a Destroyer or Cruiser shoved in your face, those are just hits)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clayton Threadgill
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SUSTAIN DAMAGE doesn't prevent the destruction of a ship, it cancels a hit.

The Exotrireme II ability doesn't produce a hit against the ship, it just destroys it. It is an effect that directly destroys a unit.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Kamber
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sande24 wrote:
The text on Exotrireme II says:
Quote:
After a round of space combat you may destroy this unit to destroy up to 2 ships in this system.


There seems to be a conflict between Sustain Damage and Destroy rules:
Quote:
76.4 A unit can use its “Sustain Damage” ability any time a hit is produced against it. This includes hits produced during combat and from unit abilities such as the “Space Cannon” ability.

• A unit can only use the “Sustain Damage” ability if it is eligible to be hit. For example, a player cannot use a dreadnought’s “Sustain Damage” ability to cancel a hit from “Anti-Fighter Barrage.”

76.5 The “Sustain Damage” ability cannot be used to cancel an effect that directly destroys a unit.


What is the correct ruling here? Can one Exotrireme II destroy 2 War Suns? Or should it mean that it gets 2 "hits" to assign to opponents' ships?

I would say that it counts as 2 hits because the rule book mentions "destroy" everywhere where you would naturally allow the unit to use Sustain Damage. (Assigning hits in combat, PDS fire, Bombardment...)

Effects that directly destroy units? Which ones are those? Mostly the ones out of combat?


I'm not sure what the conflict is. It seems to me that both quotes are saying the same thing: That "sustain damage" only applies if a hit is produced, not if the ship is destroyed by another game effect.

Exotrireme II does not "produce a hit", it destroys the target units. So sustain damage does not apply.

EDIT: Wow. ninjaninjaninja
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sande24 wrote:
I would say that it counts as 2 hits because the rule book mentions "destroy" everywhere where you would naturally allow the unit to use Sustain Damage. (Assigning hits in combat, PDS fire, Bombardment...)

This is where the erroneous thinking is - Exotrireme does NOT count as 2 hits - it specifically says to destroy the ships, not "hit" the ships. Making the assumption that it means "hits" instead is the problem.

It's a powerful ability. There is no chance to use Sustain Damage against Exotrireme II.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Indio Shepard
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mb
It is an often overlooked rule, however, that when using Exotrireme II in this manner, the N'orr player is required to yell "RAMMING SPEEEED"
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Grant
United States
Santa Clarita
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This was answered by FFG in September:

> I do have another questions about some of the "destroy abilities " in game.
>
> Exotrireme II - sacrificial ability , Assault Cannon, Yin Flagship.
> 1.) Am I correct to assume that for any Destroy ability sustain damage cannot be used ?
> 2.) Who select unit destroyed for Exotrireme II ability? Norr player or Opponent?


Hey Fedor,

Exotrireme—
1) That is correct, sustain damage cannot be used against abilities that ‘destroy’.
2) The N’orr player selects the units to be destroyed.

Let me know if I can help further,
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dane Beltrami
Game Developer
dbeltrami@fantasyflightgames.com

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/26954840#26954840
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sander Stroom
Estonia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
OK. I guess I am wrong. Still, the rule book is quite vague when it comes to assigning hits and destroying units.

Some examples where "destroy" can be used one way or another (and presumable actual meaning):

15.2 STEP 2— The player who controls the planet that is being bombarded chooses and destroys one of his ground forces on that planet for each hit result the bombardment roll produced. (hit)

37.2 Each ship that moves out of or through a gravity rift rolls one die after moving; on a result of 1–3, that ship is destroyed. (destroyed)

38.2 STEP 2— ASSIGN HITS: Each player must choose one of his ground forces on the planet to be destroyed for each hit result his opponent produced. (hit)

66.5 STEP 2— The active player must choose and destroy one of his ships in the active system for each hit result produced against his units. (hit)

67.6 STEP 4— ASSIGN HITS: Each player must choose and destroy one of his ships in the active system for each hit his opponent produced. (hit)



Why not just say "assign hits to your units" and separately mention that a unit is destroyed if it has been hit (and if it can not use Sustain Damage)? Mentak ability specifically says assign a hit. Why not use the same terminology consistently?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If an ability causes a "hit", Sustain Damage can be used. The "destroy" you are referencing in your quotes are saying how the assigned hits are resolved normally, but in each of those cases, Sustain Damage can protect the ship.

What Sustain Damage really does is cancelling hits (not "stop destruction")! (See 76.1) The bits about destroying units for each hit produced only applies to whatever leftover, un-canceled hits are left.

When an ability says to "destroy" a unit, that's not a hit, and so Sustain Damage can't be used to "cancel" it because there's no hit to cancel.

I'm not seeing the discrepancy here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Kamber
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sande24 wrote:
OK. I guess I am wrong. Still, the rule book is quite vague when it comes to assigning hits and destroying units.

Some examples where "destroy" can be used one way or another (and presumable actual meaning)


I don't see any vagueness in those examples. If you assign a hit to a ship, that ship is destroyed (unless some other effect, such as sustain damage, overrides the rule).

That does not mean that if a ship is destroyed, you have assigned a hit to it.

All oranges are fruits, but not all fruits are oranges. All hits destroy units, but not all destroyed units were hit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dulkal wrote:
I don't see any vagueness in those examples. If you assign a hit to a ship, that ship is destroyed (unless some other effect, such as sustain damage, overrides the rule).

Just to be technical, as pointed out above, sustain damage doesn't happen when assigning hits to ships - it happens by canceling a hit outright. So it's uniform - assigning a hit to a ship destroys it regardless, but you can choose to sustain damage to cancel the hit without assigning it.

A bit splitting hairs, but it can help with the whole "why can't you sustain damage a "destroy" effect"
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
james herbby
msg tools
So, I'm sure it has already been said, but there is no conflict.

Sustain damage stops 1 hit, and then damages the ship. Destroy outright removes the ship. There is no hit to cancel, it is just destroyed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin R. Krause
Germany
Hamburg
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, in the rulebook pretty much everything destroys a ship and the term „destroy“ and „assign a hit“ a used synominous throughout (s. examples above). I know we have a strong intuition which is which from years of playing TI3 but the wording in the TI4 rulebook is confusing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clayton Threadgill
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"Assign a hit" and "destroy" are not synonymous. They are connected, but not the same thing - one is a consequence of the other.

It's like "drinking beer" and "getting drunk" are connected, but not synonymous, though one generally follows the other.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torquato wrote:
Well, in the rulebook pretty much everything destroys a ship and the term „destroy“ and „assign a hit“ a used synominous throughout (s. examples above).

The examples above are not showing the terms being used in the same way. All of the ways of generating hits then go onto say that for the number of hits, you destroy that many units. It's clear this is referring to uncancelled hits.

If you still think the terms are being used interchangeably, please provide the paragraph number of a place or places where you believe this to be the case and then we can have a look at them and see if you are correct or not.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torquato wrote:
Well, in the rulebook pretty much everything destroys a ship and the term „destroy“ and „assign a hit“ a used synominous throughout (s. examples above).

No, they aren't synonymous. A hit causes a ship to be destroyed, yes, but it's a cause/effect thing, not a "equal" thing. A hit is caused when you roll dice during combat or PDS rolls. When you assign the hit, it does indeed destroy the ship, but the destruction is the byproduct of the assignment of the hit. If the hit is canceled, which is what Sustain Damage does, then there is no hit to assign. Just like you can prevent a "destroy" action card by using Sabotage to cancel the card. In both cases, you aren't canceling the "destroy", you are canceling the trigger that CAUSES the destroy.

As Clayton points out, "hit" and "destroy" are related, but that doesn't make them synonymous.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
KR P
South Africa
flag msg tools
I find the description of Sustain Damage and Cancelling Hits a bit ambiguous to say the least. FFG should have worded that in much more simplistic language.

After playing the game (being taught by friends on-the-fly), I understand what is meant by it, but as I read the rules, it is very confusing.

In my mind, when you say "Cancel a Hit": I read that as meaning the hit does not exist anymore as it has been cancelled.

So in a basic scenario where Player A has a unit that has sustain damage, and needs to assign a hit to his unit that he received from Player B:
- I read the rule as Player B has his hit cancelled, and thus there is no effect on Player A's unit as the hit was "cancelled" and he had no hit to assign anymore, thus he does not need to turn his piece upside down to reflect a hit.

- What the game developers intended was, that Player A's unit needs to be hit twice for it to be destroyed, and thus it can sustain damage. So in this case, "Cancelling a Hit" meant that Player A needed to absorb the hit on his unit, by turning it upside down, and that the next hit allocated to that upside down unit would destroy it.

The whole idea of saying "Cancelling Hits" needs to be reworded to sound less ambiguous, because what is meant by "Cancel" actually means to award a hit to a unit that needs two hits to be destroyed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clayton Threadgill
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Either you are reading a lot more into the rules language than is actually there, or you want a more detailed explanation, rather than a simpler one.

When Player A cancels a hit using the SUSTAIN DAMAGE ability, it works exactly as you described. The hit was canceled, and it is as if it never happened. Most importantly it means that Player B does not get to use any abilities that change the way that hit works, because it has been canceled.

The purpose of turning the ship upside down is not to show that the ship has absorbed a hit, it's to show that the ability has been used. If this didn't happen, then SUSTAIN DAMAGE would be able to cancel an infinite number of hits.

It's the same as turning a planet card over to show it's been used. The rules even assign terms to this state - planets are "exhausted" while ships are "damaged". When they are flipped back over ready to be used again, additional terms are assigned - planets are "refreshed" while ships are "repaired".

While the "damaged" and "repaired" terms are nice and thematic, it's important that the rules don't assign any more meaning to them than whether or not a ship can use its SUSTAIN DAMAGE ability. Strictly speaking, the ship doesn't have extra health, and it isn't "absorbing" hits.

Those hits are canceled. If you think otherwise it's because you're playing the game differently in your head than it actually happens on the table.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Grant
United States
Santa Clarita
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The_Law_Beckons wrote:


So in a basic scenario where Player A has a unit that has sustain damage, and needs to assign a hit to his unit that he received from Player B:
- I read the rule as Player B has his hit cancelled, and thus there is no effect on Player A's unit as the hit was "cancelled" and he had no hit to assign anymore,


Correct

The_Law_Beckons wrote:
thus he does not need to turn his piece upside down to reflect a hit.


This isn’t written or implied by the rules at all. And it doesn’t even make sense logically. To cancel a hit you need to turn a piece on its side.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
KR P
South Africa
flag msg tools
hooliganj wrote:
Either you are reading a lot more into the rules language than is actually there, or you want a more detailed explanation, rather than a simpler one.

When Player A cancels a hit using the SUSTAIN DAMAGE ability, it works exactly as you described. The hit was canceled, and it is as if it never happened. Most importantly it means that Player B does not get to use any abilities that change the way that hit works, because it has been canceled.

The purpose of turning the ship upside down is not to show that the ship has absorbed a hit, it's to show that the ability has been used. If this didn't happen, then SUSTAIN DAMAGE would be able to cancel an infinite number of hits.

It's the same as turning a planet card over to show it's been used. The rules even assign terms to this state - planets are "exhausted" while ships are "damaged". When they are flipped back over ready to be used again, additional terms are assigned - planets are "refreshed" while ships are "repaired".

While the "damaged" and "repaired" terms are nice and thematic, it's important that the rules don't assign any more meaning to them than whether or not a ship can use its SUSTAIN DAMAGE ability. Strictly speaking, the ship doesn't have extra health, and it isn't "absorbing" hits.

Those hits are canceled. If you think otherwise it's because you're playing the game differently in your head than it actually happens on the table.


I think we're not on the same page when it comes to the jargon referred in the words. I am a new player reading the rules, you are most likely a veteran of TI, and thus might be too close to the game/rules/understanding to see where I am coming from.

Lets try and simplify my thought process, so you can better understand where I am coming from.

- Units get destroyed when they are ASSIGNED a hit. Units that are destroyed when they are ASSIGNED ONE hit are: fighters, destroyers, GF, cruisers*

- Then we get units that are destroyed when they are ASSIGNED TWO hits. These units are Warsuns, dreadnoughts, flagships (I think all of them), cruisers II* (I think). You are referring to these units as having SUSTAIN DAMAGE. I refer to them as needing TWO hits, in which case it can absorb ONE hit ASSIGNED to it, and the next hit assigned to it destroys it. You are saying that it loses its ability to sustain damage. I am saying it loses one point in its survival. There can be no infinite number of hits, as that unit can only sustain one hit, the next hit it gets destroys it (Needs two hits to be destroyed).

When you/the rules say CANCEL one hit, you/the rules are referring to a unit absorbing/reducing/being ASSIGNED a hit/using its SUSTAIN DAMAGE for the number of hits before it can be destroyed.

When I read CANCEL, I read it as being null and void. That "Hit" is effectively a nothing shot. It is cancelled. There is no "Hit" to be ASSIGNED/trigger a SUSTAIN DAMAGE to a unit as it has been voided by the "Cancel" statement.

What the rules meant to say was, if a unit has "sustain damage" as an ability, it does not cancel a hit, it absorbs it. As in my initial paragraph above, units with SUSTAIN DAMAGE require TWO hits to be destroyed.

Maybe you are correct in saying that I am reading too much into the wording, but as someone who is coming in from the cold, I am more likely to take the wording literally, as opposed to the way the developers were hoping for it to be interpreted.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clayton Threadgill
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The_Law_Beckons wrote:
Maybe you are correct in saying that I am reading too much into the wording, but as someone who is coming in from the cold, I am more likely to take the wording literally, as opposed to the way the developers were hoping for it to be interpreted.

I understand your thought process, but spelling it out like that only proves my point.

As a result of this thread, I've now re-read the section of the rules for SUSTAIN DAMAGE several times, looking for potential misreadings. It's not even remotely ambiguous.

You aren't taking the wording literally. You've created an interpretation of the rules in your head that works for you, and most of the time that's fine. I often do the same thing, even when teaching rules to other people, even here on the BGG boards.

The problem is that there's often a flaw in any interpretation, because even a good interpretation isn't a perfect copy of the rules. When those flaws cause a conflict with the rules, you can go back and read the rules again and revise your interpretation, or memorize the exception.

What you are doing is attempting to change the wording of the rules, and of the people trying to explain the rules to you, so that it better fits your interpretation, and then calling the result confusing.

For example:
The_Law_Beckons wrote:
When you/the rules say CANCEL one hit, you/the rules are referring to a unit absorbing/reducing/being ASSIGNED a hit/using its SUSTAIN DAMAGE for the number of hits before it can be destroyed.

Neither I nor the rules say this anywhere. In fact, we both say the opposite. A cancelled hit is not absorbed -- it is never assigned to a unit.

The_Law_Beckons wrote:
When I read CANCEL, I read it as being null and void. That "Hit" is effectively a nothing shot. It is cancelled. There is no "Hit" to be ASSIGNED/trigger a SUSTAIN DAMAGE to a unit as it has been voided by the "Cancel" statement.

Your interpretation at this point is correct, and lines up perfectly with the rules. The hit is canceled, and it is as if there never was a hit in the first place.

The_Law_Beckons wrote:
What the rules meant to say was, if a unit has "sustain damage" as an ability, it does not cancel a hit, it absorbs it. As in my initial paragraph above, units with SUSTAIN DAMAGE require TWO hits to be destroyed.

This is where your interpretation is in conflict with the actual wording. The rules say exactly what they mean to say. You are the one adding the assumption that a hit needs to be assigned to a unit before SUSTAIN DAMAGE can be applied, but that's not true.

More accurately, you could say that a fleet containing units with SUSTAIN DAMAGE will take additional hits to destroy. If you generate 5 hits against a fleet with 2 dreadnoughts, and the fleet's owner decides to use both available SUSTAIN DAMAGE abilities, then there are only 3 hits left to assign to the fleet. Those 2 canceled hits were never assigned to any ship.

The_Law_Beckons wrote:
Maybe you are correct in saying that I am reading too much into the wording, but as someone who is coming in from the cold, I am more likely to take the wording literally, as opposed to the way the developers were hoping for it to be interpreted.

I can't deny that I've been playing the game longer. I've played and taught others to play TI since I first picked up the 2nd edition 16 years ago.

But I don't know why you would hold that against me in this context. As someone who is used to teaching the game, the normal response to a detailed explanation of a rule from multiple practiced players isn't that they've all been interpreting the rules wrong all this time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The_Law_Beckons wrote:
- Units get destroyed when they are ASSIGNED a hit. Units that are destroyed when they are ASSIGNED ONE hit are: fighters, destroyers, GF, cruisers*

This is incorrect. ALL units are destroyed when they are assigned a hit. Sustain Damage doesn't work by assigning a hit and "absorbing" it - it works by canceling a hit before it is ever assigned (mechanically).

Quote:
- Then we get units that are destroyed when they are ASSIGNED TWO hits. These units are Warsuns, dreadnoughts, flagships (I think all of them), cruisers II* (I think). You are referring to these units as having SUSTAIN DAMAGE. I refer to them as needing TWO hits, in which case it can absorb ONE hit ASSIGNED to it, and the next hit assigned to it destroys it. You are saying that it loses its ability to sustain damage. I am saying it loses one point in its survival. There can be no infinite number of hits, as that unit can only sustain one hit, the next hit it gets destroys it (Needs two hits to be destroyed).

This is incorrect. To use SUSTAIN DAMAGE, you do not assign the hit to the ship first. Instead, before assigning hits, you can use Sustain Damage on a ship to cancel a hit. Using the ability causes the ship to be damaged, but the hit you canceled was not assigned to any ship at all.

Quote:
When you/the rules say CANCEL one hit, you/the rules are referring to a unit absorbing/reducing/being ASSIGNED a hit/using its SUSTAIN DAMAGE for the number of hits before it can be destroyed.

The rules do not say this. The second sentence of SUSTAIN DAMAGE (76) says: "Immediately before a player assigns damage to his units..."

You use the ability before you've assigned any hits. They are not assigned to the units first.

Quote:
When I read CANCEL, I read it as being null and void. That "Hit" is effectively a nothing shot. It is cancelled. There is no "Hit" to be ASSIGNED/trigger a SUSTAIN DAMAGE to a unit as it has been voided by the "Cancel" statement.

This is partly correct. You are right that the hit is null and void, but the cancelling of the hit comes because you used the ability, not because you assigned a damage to the ship.

Quote:
What the rules meant to say was, if a unit has "sustain damage" as an ability, it does not cancel a hit, it absorbs it.

No, I'm not sure where you are getting this from. It cancels the hit. It's quite clear that's what it does. Thematically, yes, it "absorbs" the hit, but mechanically, you only ever assign a hit to a ship once before it dies. SUSTAIN DAMAGE prevents the hit from ever being assigned at all.

Quote:
As in my initial paragraph above, units with SUSTAIN DAMAGE require TWO hits to be destroyed.

Only because the first hit is canceled before being assigned. You do NOT assign two hits to the ship with SUSTAIN DAMAGE.


Example: Player A's ships produce 5 hits against Player B's fleet. Player B has 2 Dreadnoughts and 3 Destroyers in his fleet. He decides to use SUSTAIN DAMAGE for one of his Dreadnoughts. This cancels 1 hit, reducing the number to 4, and he turns one of the Dreadnoughts on its side. He has to assign those 4 hits. Any of these hits assigned will destroy the unit it is assigned to, even if he assigns one of them to the Dreadnought that did NOT use SUSTAIN DAMAGE (though realistically, he'd assign it to the damaged Dreadnought instead). If he assigns the hit to the damaged Dreadnought, that would be the ONLY hit assigned to that Dreadnought - the canceled one was never assigned to it.

This situation could come up if a player wants to keeps a lone, undamaged Dreadnought intact rather than have 2 damaged Dreadnoughts. Probably rare, but it's a possibility.

The point is, SUSTAIN DAMAGE essentially cancels hits from the "hit pool" before you assign them to ships. Once you assign damage to a ship, it dies, regardless of what kind of ship it is, and regardless of whether it is turned over. Realistically, though, if you are going to assign a damage/hit to a ship that has SUSTAIN DAMAGE, you'd be better off just using the ability to cancel the hit before you assign it, unless for some reason you REALLY want the ship to die.


If you are playing the Letnev and use Non-Euclidian Shielding, nothing really changes, except when you use SUSTAIN DAMAGE, you cancel TWO hits from the pool, not just one. But you still never assigned the "canceled" hit to any ship. SUSTAIN DAMAGE is used before assigning any damage.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To summarise everything and make this easier for Mo, it's probably easiest to just show the part of the rules that Mo didn't read properly:

RRG - Sustain Damage wrote:
76.1 For each “Sustain Damage” ability that a player uses, one hit
produced by another player’s units is canceled. Then, each
unit using this ability is placed on its side to indicate that it is
damaged.


So you were correct at first, Mo. The hit is indeed cancelled and it does not have any effect in exactly the way you describe. However, to cancel the hit, you must also turn the ship on its side and that is what you missed and what the others have used many words to try to explain to you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Grant
United States
Santa Clarita
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also I'll point out that even if a hit is assigned to a specific ship (such as with the Yin ability), the ship can use it's own SUSTAIN DAMAGE ability to cancel the hit (if available).

So it doesn't really matter if a hit is assigned to a ship or not. SUSTAIN DAMAGE can be used to cancel the hit. In normal combat, the recipient of the hits assigns the hits to ships and can use SUSTAIN DAMAGE prior to assigning the hits to cancel them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.