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Subject: Hadsch Halla Strategy rss

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Álvaro Sampaio
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We tried Hadsch Halla some times but my group never attained a good scoring with this faction.

In every game we managed to have a lot of gold and tried to convert money to QIC's and rescore the money federation/alliance. For this, the common strategy, were- build an early Planetary Institute, climb in income track and build trade stations.

But after several weak scores we were thinking that a mid, not early game PI would be better.

Anyone else having troubles to achieve a good score with Hadsch Hallas?
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Flo P
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I consider Hadsch Halla to be more towards the 'generalist' side of the faction spectrum, meaning that they are very robust and can achieve good results independent of setup. The tricky part with them is that you are in full charge of analyzing and choosing the correct approach for your setup, since they are so flexible and don't really have a predetermined way to be played.

I would definitely avoid a R1 PI and rather build it in the mid or even late game. Round tiles, and boosters that work in their favor are VP for building trading posts/passing, look out for advanced techs that might tie into this as well. In particular the VP for trading posts built tech works nice with them, the one giving VP for labs when passing is also nice if you built your TPs in the midgame, you will usually want to upgrade them to labs later on.

As a side note, for me Hadsch Halla is the most boring race in the game shake. You can essentially win games by playing them as a faction without abilities and just steamrolling others with your superior economy. If you are a beginner I would advise to stay away from them and rather play some faction that gives you a clear goal, like Geods/Gleen/Swarm/Terrans.
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Robert
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bluesheep wrote:
You can essentially win games by playing them as a faction without abilities and just steamrolling others with your superior economy.
Their superior economy IS their ability. They get extra coin income and even start with level 1 on the "Economy" (sic!) track. Looks like a not-so-subtle hint to me about what their ability may be.

Regarding their PI, I agree that it's nothing you need in round 1; their PI should be timed towards round 2 or 3.
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Flo P
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Then let me rephrase that: With the Hadsch Halla you aren't usually looking down some highly specific path to maximize their potential around or a fun and quirky way to overcome certain built-in restrictions. Their gameplay is simply highly opportunistic: take the path that gives more VP. In particular that means, grab boosters that grant VPs rather than ones that help your economy (maybe even to deny them to your opponents). If I think about it, more than anything else, this aspect actually defines what the Hadsch Halla feel like for me. You don't have to put that much consideration into grabbing certain tech tiles/boosters to first help your economy in order to help your VP engine, rather you go after VPs directly. That is what I essentially meant by 'a faction without abilities'.
 
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Kester J
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bluesheep wrote:
Then let me rephrase that: With the Hadsch Halla you aren't usually looking down some highly specific path to maximize their potential around or a fun and quirky way to overcome certain built-in restrictions. Their gameplay is simply highly opportunistic: take the path that gives more VP. In particular that means, grab boosters that grant VPs rather than ones that help your economy (maybe even to deny them to your opponents). If I think about it, more than anything else, this aspect actually defines what the Hadsch Halla feel like for me. You don't have to put that much consideration into grabbing certain tech tiles/boosters to first help your economy in order to help your VP engine, rather you go after VPs directly. That is what I essentially meant by 'a faction without abilities'.


There's a bit of personal preference here for sure; for me the more generalist factions are the ones I enjoy more, as the quirky ones can sometimes feel like a straitjacket on how you play. But I agree with everything you say about how to play them: round VP boosters are good, the PI is strictly mid-game or later, hit the round scoring as much as possible because your economy is robust and can handle awkward build orders they might cause. I'd add that they're also a faction who should be competing for first place in endgame scorings in many games, especially those which reward you for putting buildings onto the board (most buildings, most buildings in federations, and to a slightly lesser extent most sectors). Most buildings in particular is one Hadsch Hallas should be expecting to come first in every time it features.
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Kester wrote:
There's a bit of personal preference here for sure; for me the more generalist factions are the ones I enjoy more, as the quirky ones can sometimes feel like a straitjacket on how you play. But I agree with everything you say about how to play them: round VP boosters are good, the PI is strictly mid-game or later, hit the round scoring as much as possible because your economy is robust and can handle awkward build orders they might cause. I'd add that they're also a faction who should be competing for first place in endgame scorings in many games, especially those which reward you for putting buildings onto the board (most buildings, most buildings in federations, and to a slightly lesser extent most sectors). Most buildings in particular is one Hadsch Hallas should be expecting to come first in every time it features.


I feel you, first time playing Bal Tak I liked their uniqueness very much, on the second play I was already bored by them.

On topic:
I am still not sure about how important the eco track for the Hadsch Halla is. The opinions I heard ranged from rush up as fast as possible to maximize income to ignore it. I think the truth lies in the middle. Boost your economy, but always with some purpose in mind, like what you will go to build next for scoring. Their biggest strength is their flexibility, so be opportunistic.
 
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Robert
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Lenrok wrote:
On topic:
I am still not sure about how important the eco track for the Hadsch Halla is. The opinions I heard ranged from rush up as fast as possible to maximize income to ignore it. I think the truth lies in the middle. Boost your economy, but always with some purpose in mind, like what you will go to build next for scoring. Their biggest strength is their flexibility, so be opportunistic.
HH should advance on whatever research track the tech tile with +4c income is.
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DocCool wrote:
Lenrok wrote:
On topic:
I am still not sure about how important the eco track for the Hadsch Halla is. The opinions I heard ranged from rush up as fast as possible to maximize income to ignore it. I think the truth lies in the middle. Boost your economy, but always with some purpose in mind, like what you will go to build next for scoring. Their biggest strength is their flexibility, so be opportunistic.
HH should advance on whatever research track the tech tile with +4c income is.


Completely disagree, i think hadsch halla should value coins LESS and ignore the PI till late. They already have lots of extra coin income and rather just balance their income and not have to make use of the PI. The PI offers just inefficient exchange rates.

Playing hadsch halla with a full coin economy is the easy But inefficient way. Just playing them 'normal' without PI is harder but better.
 
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Flo P
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Markwerf wrote:
Playing hadsch halla with a full coin economy is the easy But inefficient way. Just playing them 'normal' without PI is harder but better.


That is why I am essentially regarding them as a race without abilities (we seem to have a similar playstyle here). Note however that their PI offers some merit through the 4pw->7c power action, as that one is more efficient (+1 gold) then the similar power action for workers. Further (during late game), getting a qic for 4 gold can be a very strong move, particularly if you pay close attention to your opponents and snap away the QIC actions they were aiming at. Especially when you are head to head for 1st place, VPs gathered this way are swing/delta and can secure your win.
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Robert
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bluesheep wrote:
Markwerf wrote:
Playing hadsch halla with a full coin economy is the easy But inefficient way. Just playing them 'normal' without PI is harder but better.


That is why I am essentially regarding them as a race without abilities (we seem to have a similar playstyle here). Note however that their PI offers some merit through the 4pw->7c power action, as that one is more efficient (+1 gold) then the similar power action for workers. Further (during late game), getting a qic for 4 gold can be a very strong move, particularly if you pay close attention to your opponents and snap away the QIC actions they were aiming at. Especially when you are head to head for 1st place, VPs gathered this way are swing/delta and can secure your win.
So you agree to someone claiming the HH should be played without their PI, but then state how useful the PI is for various things, including QIC actions. whistle

I consider the ability to create 2+ QICs "out of thin air" as a really strong move, and the HH are among the few who can pull this off without an obviously overflowing power bowl III - the other faction being Terrans during Gaia phase conversions (but limited to the start of a round).

For the record: I don't think the HH should play only based on coins (and their PI), but also try to make use of Economy research. As this thread is about how to win with HH, it's hard enough if you dwell on their strength - I don't see them becoming competitive by avoiding both their PI's coin-conversion ability and the Economy research track.
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my opinion on HH :
PI is useless until you have many coins.
If you don't have coin, what PI can give you ? only power income

I think if i play HH, i really want ORE. Every faction want ORE.
Like TM, you can build easily with low credit but not without ore (or worker).

So in research, i will fast rush lvl 2 of economy for a 1ore income.
I will probably want to have navigation lvl 2 and max terraformation or economy because it's give more ore.
Depends on the technology tiles but i probably want +1ore/+1power income,+4 credit income and +1knowledge/+1coin income.

I think building PI too early is a mistake, i probably will do it turn 4, to have a strong turn 5 and 6. but it's depend on many things (if it's score, if i can support it, if i want to build a federation ...)

In conclusion, if i can start build many mines i will do it, if not i will build research lab. Research lab give you more T1 than PI.


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James Wolfpacker
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Kkouet wrote:
my opinion on HH :
PI is useless until you have many coins.
If you don't have coin, what PI can give you ? only power income

I think if i play HH, i really want ORE. Every faction want ORE.
Like TM, you can build easily with low credit but not without ore (or worker).

So in research, i will fast rush lvl 2 of economy for a 1ore income.
I will probably want to have navigation lvl 2 and max terraformation or economy because it's give more ore.
Depends on the technology tiles but i probably want +1ore/+1power income,+4 credit income and +1knowledge/+1coin income.

I think building PI too early is a mistake, i probably will do it turn 4, to have a strong turn 5 and 6. but it's depend on many things (if it's score, if i can support it, if i want to build a federation ...)

In conclusion, if i can start build many mines i will do it, if not i will build research lab. Research lab give you more T1 than PI.



There is a lot of good comments in here, but I'd tend to go for the RL rather than a Mine rush since there is more quick ore income available to HH that way. Getting L2 of Econ with +1o1pw income tech by building a RL and 1 extra mine is most efficient (end with RL+2M) and allows you to apply your initial 4k anywhere you need to (or apply 4k to the Economy and take that tech where it lay). You'd have to end R1 with 5M or 4M and your 4k on the Econ track. This probably means taking at least 1 GP using 1Q in R1... which probably every player might do anyway unless scoring GP is 4vp in R2 (and some players might still hit them in R1 anyway).

In Gaia Project, there is going to be generic faction strategy and generic player strategy which is what you do if you can't formulate a specific strategy for a particular setup. In Terra Mystica there is one generic strategy which works pretty well for all factions and players. You can do really well if end R1 with TE+3D and FAV11 (+2vp/D). For now, I'd say the same probably applies to Gaia except that it can be RL+2M with an option play on the 3rd based on what's going on in the particular game you are playing.
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Kester J
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Kkouet wrote:
my opinion on HH :
PI is useless until you have many coins.
If you don't have coin, what PI can give you ? only power income

I think if i play HH, i really want ORE. Every faction want ORE.
Like TM, you can build easily with low credit but not without ore (or worker).

So in research, i will fast rush lvl 2 of economy for a 1ore income.
I will probably want to have navigation lvl 2 and max terraformation or economy because it's give more ore.
Depends on the technology tiles but i probably want +1ore/+1power income,+4 credit income and +1knowledge/+1coin income.

I think building PI too early is a mistake, i probably will do it turn 4, to have a strong turn 5 and 6. but it's depend on many things (if it's score, if i can support it, if i want to build a federation ...)

In conclusion, if i can start build many mines i will do it, if not i will build research lab. Research lab give you more T1 than PI.



There is a lot of good comments in here, but I'd tend to go for the RL rather than a Mine rush since there is more quick ore income available to HH that way. Getting L2 of Econ with +1o1pw income tech by building a RL and 1 extra mine is most efficient (end with RL+2M) and allows you to apply your initial 4k anywhere you need to (or apply 4k to the Economy and take that tech where it lay). You'd have to end R1 with 5M or 4M and your 4k on the Econ track. This probably means taking at least 1 GP using 1Q in R1... which probably every player might do anyway unless scoring GP is 4vp in R2 (and some players might still hit them in R1 anyway).

In Gaia Project, there is going to be generic faction strategy and generic player strategy which is what you do if you can't formulate a specific strategy for a particular setup. In Terra Mystica there is one generic strategy which works pretty well for all factions and players. You can do really well if end R1 with TE+3D and FAV11 (+2vp/D). For now, I'd say the same probably applies to Gaia except that it can be RL+2M with an option play on the 3rd based on what's going on in the particular game you are playing.


Yes, agree with this. There's an econ "hump" to get over in GP because of the 0 ore income on the the third mine - if you don't get over it you can get a bit stuck in a cycle of building a mine and being unable to do anything but upgrade it, so your ore income doesn't improve. (A bit like the cycle you can get stuck in with Swarmlings in TM if you're not careful.) But if you do get over it, you have to be careful that you didn't spend too many resources building mines, which can mean it's a long slog to improve your coin income (partly because you can't lean on round boosters for coins as much as you can in TM).

Hadsch Hallas basically don't have to worry about this hump one way or the other: either they build a lot of mines and don't need to worry about ruining their coin income because they are getting at least 5 every round regardless of buildings; or they build upwards and can rely on improving the economy track to keep their ore income high enough.
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Flo P
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
For now, I'd say the same probably applies to Gaia except that it can be RL+2M with an option play on the 3rd based on what's going on in the particular game you are playing.


I already proclaimed this worry of mine in some other thread: For now it appears to me that GP offers less exotic openings than TM did. Usually one will start with a PI or lab + some minor expansion (ideally 1 dig and/or 1 gaia planet). However I have nowhere nearly enough games under my belt to claim this with any certainty, for example I just recently started to think about and experiment with Academy openings (mainly due to you vouching for them XD)


Kester wrote:

Yes, agree with this. There's an econ "hump" to get over in GP because of the 0 ore income on the the third mine ...


Since cracking the game open for the first time I was wondering about this peculiarity. Combined with navigation boosts only working temporary, this severly hampers dwelling/mine rushes, an opening I was really fond of back in TM. I'd be curious to hear at which stage during playtesting the zero income on the third mine was introduced and what the thoughts behind it have been (besides the obvious: incentivizing upgrading)
 
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Robert
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Indeed a "mine spree" (as in "build 4+ mines in round 1") is not an option in GP as it is in TM.
 
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bluesheep wrote:
I already proclaimed this worry of mine in some other thread: For now it appears to me that GP offers less exotic openings than TM did. Usually one will start with a PI or lab + some minor expansion (ideally 1 dig and/or 1 gaia planet). However I have nowhere nearly enough games under my belt to claim this with any certainty, for example I just recently started to think about and experiment with Academy openings (mainly due to you vouching for them XD)

Since cracking the game open for the first time I was wondering about this peculiarity. Combined with navigation boosts only working temporary, this severly hampers dwelling/mine rushes, an opening I was really fond of back in TM. I'd be curious to hear at which stage during playtesting the zero income on the third mine was introduced and what the thoughts behind it have been (besides the obvious: incentivizing upgrading)


I'd give more credit to SpaceTrucker for the Academy opening. I'm just the biggest loudmouth.

The RL+2M is a safe average opening. Of course there is still much more you can do in GP for R1 than just that. I just didn't expound on it.
 
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DocCool wrote:
Indeed a "mine spree" (as in "build 4+ mines in round 1") is not an option in GP as it is in TM.


I think some races can do it a bit. The xenon which start with 2 greens, decent power and 3 mines. Or the two factions that start with a Navigation headstart and can thus reach 2 nav without a research lab.

If you can build 4 mines for +3 ore income i think that's typically better than a RL + mine opening that gives you +1 science and the income from tech tile and track. At best that gives you something like +1 science +2 ore +2 power if you could go ahead on economy track.

I think there are plenty situations where mine openings are good, especially for the navigation races but also lantida, xenon and possibly the swarm.

But yeah most factions most cases want to do RL + mine i think. If you get lucky with Ore (Or if you're Itar) you want to do academy. Some factions want PI first but these are only a few i think (geods and terran).

And yes openings are bit less exotic but that's just because the first turn is less explosive i think since you start with less (power especially), don't have races like swarmlings and don't have round bonuses like +1 range for the whole turn.

Openings are still more varied imo because you actually need to think about tech tiles. TM has you go FAV11 too much which is boring.
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James Wolfpacker
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DocCool wrote:
Indeed a "mine spree" (as in "build 4+ mines in round 1") is not an option in GP as it is in TM.


Many factions can build 4 mines in R1 to end with 6M total. Most factions start with 7 ore after the 1st income. You need 4 ore for the 4M. Some factions will require a slight adjustment of these steps (Lantida could just pop them on opponents, but losing that knowledge would suck).

Have the +3 booster or 1 terraform action to hit a home planet or 1 off.
Get a terraform power action after some leech.
Use your knowledge step for a 2nd QIC to use for range along with your starting QIC on a Gaia.
Use 3 ore for a T-step on an adjacent planet which is also 1 off.

If I thought about it more, I'm sure I could find a few thousand configurations of setup that allows a 7M opening.

These could be great openings or not, but at least 1 faction, perhaps even 2 factions in any game can pull off a mine spree to end with 6M. If the setup is right and the factions work, I'm sure all 4 factions in a game could start with 6M, but I'm not pulling out game material to figure it out.

I'd bet that in many games several players in a game can end R1 with 5M, but I'm not sure if this is always a great opening compared to RL+2M. If 3p do it and the 4th doesn't, the 4th player could get squeezed out.
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
DocCool wrote:
Indeed a "mine spree" (as in "build 4+ mines in round 1") is not an option in GP as it is in TM.


Many factions can build 4 mines in R1 to end with 6M total.
I understand the "can" part. It's however not nearly as easy as in TM. Maybe I should have phrased it as "is not as much of an option in GP as it is in TM".
 
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DocCool wrote:
bluesheep wrote:
Markwerf wrote:
Playing hadsch halla with a full coin economy is the easy But inefficient way. Just playing them 'normal' without PI is harder but better.


That is why I am essentially regarding them as a race without abilities (we seem to have a similar playstyle here). Note however that their PI offers some merit through the 4pw->7c power action, as that one is more efficient (+1 gold) then the similar power action for workers. Further (during late game), getting a qic for 4 gold can be a very strong move, particularly if you pay close attention to your opponents and snap away the QIC actions they were aiming at. Especially when you are head to head for 1st place, VPs gathered this way are swing/delta and can secure your win.
So you agree to someone claiming the HH should be played without their PI, but then state how useful the PI is for various things, including QIC actions. whistle

I consider the ability to create 2+ QICs "out of thin air" as a really strong move, and the HH are among the few who can pull this off without an obviously overflowing power bowl III - the other faction being Terrans during Gaia phase conversions (but limited to the start of a round).

For the record: I don't think the HH should play only based on coins (and their PI), but also try to make use of Economy research. As this thread is about how to win with HH, it's hard enough if you dwell on their strength - I don't see them becoming competitive by avoiding both their PI's coin-conversion ability and the Economy research track.


You got some flawed thinking here. Just because they have the option to make the PI and be more flexibile with their coins doesn't mean it's their strength to do so.

Their strength is their starting setup having the best overall income of all factions. The PI only adds flexibility at the cost of effficiency, unless the setup is good for it (for example an early PI bonus followed by a trading post bonus to go for a full coin economy) it's only a flexible option that is best avoided till late in the game. You are better off making sure your economy is balanced and doesn't need the PI which means you should focus getting coins LESS and ore MORE. The +4 coin tech tile is usually bad for them as it unbalances their income.

The economy research track is fine to use because the tracks in this game reward focusing. The benefits of going a step up typically increase the higher you get so any faction that already starts with a step on a track should seriously consider going further on that track. The second step of economy is especially good for hadsch halla giving them some much needed extra ore.

The best way to use their PI I found is making it late for forming an alliance and getting some QIC.
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James Wolfpacker
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These guys are going to be like Alchemists... It'll be 3 years before we know how to play them.
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Aaron Eggman
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HH is amazing if you can get the advanced tech of 5 coins + 1 QIC in round 2. I won by over 50 points in a 4 player game.
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eggmanaa wrote:
HH is amazing if you can get the advanced tech of 5 coins + 1 QIC in round 2. I won by over 50 points in a 4 player game.
Sounds nice. What was your score in the end? In general I guess most factions can do really well if they get a good start and in round 2 manage to get to level 4 of a tech track, form a federation and take a useful advanced tech after this.
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I won with HH last night, and the biggest factor seemed to be my flexibility in the final two rounds to accomplish all those little "extra" things where other players were constrained by resource management.

The PI conversion of money to anything (at a decent rate) allowed me buy an extra knowledge here, an extra Q.I.C there, and take more of the special actions on the knowledge board. I was able to re-score a 12 VP federation tile on the last turn just by converting credits to Q.I.C.

It was well-oiled for the latter half, and last rounds to do stuff.
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SpaceTrucker wrote:
eggmanaa wrote:
HH is amazing if you can get the advanced tech of 5 coins + 1 QIC in round 2. I won by over 50 points in a 4 player game.
Sounds nice. What was your score in the end? In general I guess most factions can do really well if they get a good start and in round 2 manage to get to level 4 of a tech track, form a federation and take a useful advanced tech after this.

It was such a blow out that the players called the game before the final round.
 
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