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Subject: Strange wording... rss

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Craig S.
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So, the entry for "killed" in the RR makes it clear that a fight ends immediately if the survivor is killed...

Killed wrote:
When a survivor is killed during a fight, the fight ends,
and no additional steps are resolved.


No further steps are resolved, meaning the survivor never gets to deal damage and possibly kill the enemy. But then there's this strange sentence...

Fight wrote:
If the survivor is killed and the enemy is not killed, the
enemy remains active and in the space.


This is odd because it strongly suggests that it's possible for BOTH to be killed. It could be (indeed I think SHOULD be) interpreted as a long-winded way of saying "if the enemy is not defested" or "if the survivor is killed"....but I still have doubts. Is mutual destruction somehow possible? Cuz that would mean you could receive XP and level up after dying ...
 
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I was under the impression that the combat was resolved simultaneously when you roll the three VATS dice. In other words let's say an enemy is vulnerable to two arm wounds. You roll the vats dice, and get a result high enough to kill it, however lets say you only have 2 HP as well and the dice also shows two hits on you. You both die.
At least that was my interpretation.
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Craig S.
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Sea Specter wrote:
I was under the impression that the combat was resolved simultaneously when you roll the three VATS dice. In other words let's say an enemy is vulnerable to two arm wounds. You roll the vats dice, and get a result high enough to kill it, however lets say you only have 2 HP as well and the dice also shows two hits on you. You both die.
At least that was my interpretation.


The RR lays it out in clear steps, and in the learn to play it after the rules for the enemy dealing damage, it says...

Fight Action wrote:
Next, you inflict hits!


So no, I don't believe the resolving of damage is meant to be simulaneous.

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Tony Graham
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csouth154 wrote:
So, the entry for "killed" in the RR makes it clear that a fight ends immediately if the survivor is killed...

Killed wrote:
When a survivor is killed during a fight, the fight ends,
and no additional steps are resolved.


No further steps are resolved, meaning the survivor never gets to deal damage and possibly kill the enemy. But then there's this strange sentence...

Fight wrote:
If the survivor is killed and the enemy is not killed, the
enemy remains active and in the space.


This is odd because it strongly suggests that it's possible for BOTH to be killed. It could be (indeed I think SHOULD be) interpreted as a long-winded way of saying "if the enemy is not defested" or "if the survivor is killed"....but I still have doubts. Is mutual destruction somehow possible? Cuz that would mean you could receive XP and level up after dying ...


Some cards list abilities which state "during a fight." This can be applied any time during a fight. So if a card generates an automatic hit, that can be used before damage is applied to the player. So an enemy can be killed in this manner and then the rolls could still kill the player.
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Craig S.
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Hmmm...I don't know. Based on what seems most intuitive to me (and my experience with past FFG games), I have a very strong suspician that the intent is that all damage dealt by the enemy can happen only in step 3 (resolve enemy hits) and all damage dealt by the survivor only in step 4 (resolve survivor hits). There is nothing in the rules I can use to say for sure this is true, though, so I will put the question directly to FFG.
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Tony Graham
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csouth154 wrote:
Hmmm...I don't know. Based on what seems most intuitive to me (and my experience with past FFG games), I have a very strong suspician that the intent is that all damage dealt by the enemy can happen only in step 3 (resolve enemy hits) and all damage dealt by the survivor only in step 4 (resolve survivor hits). There is nothing in the rules I can use to say for sure this is true, though, so I will put the question directly to FFG.


**Per FFG Rules as cited. Abilities on cards that say "during fight" can be applied at any stage of the fight. Page 8 of rules reference.
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Craig S.
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JavaGammer wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
Hmmm...I don't know. Based on what seems most intuitive to me (and my experience with past FFG games), I have a very strong suspician that the intent is that all damage dealt by the enemy can happen only in step 3 (resolve enemy hits) and all damage dealt by the survivor only in step 4 (resolve survivor hits). There is nothing in the rules I can use to say for sure this is true, though, so I will put the question directly to FFG.


**Per FFG Rules as cited. Abilities on cards that say "during fight" can be applied at any stage of the fight. Page 8 of rules reference.


I totally acknowledge that rule, I just suspect they neglected to mention that any damage caused by abilities is only actually applied during step 4: Resolve Surivivor hits.
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Craig S.
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I have put it to FFG. We'll see what comes back. My feeling is that it's not supposed to be possible for the enemy and the Survivor to die in the same fight.
 
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Tony Graham
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csouth154 wrote:
JavaGammer wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
Hmmm...I don't know. Based on what seems most intuitive to me (and my experience with past FFG games), I have a very strong suspician that the intent is that all damage dealt by the enemy can happen only in step 3 (resolve enemy hits) and all damage dealt by the survivor only in step 4 (resolve survivor hits). There is nothing in the rules I can use to say for sure this is true, though, so I will put the question directly to FFG.


**Per FFG Rules as cited. Abilities on cards that say "during fight" can be applied at any stage of the fight. Page 8 of rules reference.


I totally acknowledge that rule, I just suspect they neglected to mention that any damage caused by abilities is only actually applied during step 4: Resolve Surivivor hits.


Ok, I see what you are saying but then the wording on the cards does not make sense. Why say during a fight apply one hit instead of during damage enemy round? If during a fight only means during one phase of the fight, then why not say it? As much as this was play tested that would for sure come up. I would probably agree with the you but the cards and rules suggest different from specifically stating enemy damage round. That is a lot of printing to get by the editors and testers.
 
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Tony Graham
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So far, in 3 plays, we haven't run into this situation. I suspect because it could only happen on a level 1 enemy.
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Craig S.
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Yeah. I hear ya, but honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the playtesters all intuitivelty did it the way I described. It would be very much in keeping with the way FFG does things in their games, and most of their playtesters test most of their games, I think.
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Tony Graham
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csouth154 wrote:
Yeah. I hear ya, but honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the playtesters all intuitivelty did it the way I described. It would be very much in keeping with the way FFG does things in their games, and most of their playtesters test most of their games, I think.


Report back when you get an official ruling please.
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Joe
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I'd say abilities can be applied at any stage in a fight if the card says so, but you only Resolve Survivor Hits during Stage 4.

As for the original question, good catch Craig. I'm pretty confident you are right as well in that if a survivor dies, the fight stops and the enemy can't be killed.
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Phil Thompson
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Can the extra hit from a ranged weapon also be applied at any time during a fight ie before enemies attack, meaning you can pop adjacent mole rats for target practice ( as an action ), but if you don't they'll scurry up and bite you if they activate ?

 
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Joe
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I'd say the extra hit is applied from the get go, but again, survivor hits are only resolved during Stage 4.
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Big Head Zach
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csouth154 wrote:
Fight wrote:
If the survivor is killed and the enemy is not killed, the
enemy remains active and in the space.



This matters to enemies with the Retreat ability, who would normally flip facedown after a fight in which the player did not kill them but who did not die.

In this case, the enemy doesn't flip facedown because there is no retreat.
 
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