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Subject: Diabolical rss

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Drake Coker
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I think I've been playing the SA's Diabolical incorrectly for some time now.

Dashing out of the Trample Zone isn't enough to avoid getting trampled once the targeting has been figured, right? The SA will happily follow you diagonally, for example.

For some reason I've been locking the SA into just running one of the zone lanes.

Can someone confirm?
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Bradley Lacke
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I think you've been playing it right. The card calls the cardinal lanes "the Trample Zone" leading me to believe that if you move out of it, the Antelope wouldn't "trample" you on the diagonal.
 
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Mark Watson
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If you dash after the survivor has been selected as a target then the SA is just going to chase the survivor, so unless the dash carries you out of range they're still going to get hit. The diagram on the card shows the area targets may be picked from, not how the Antelope will actually move.

If there's no eligible target in the zone it will simply full move forward, so the only way to lock it into a movement path as it were would be to ensure there's no eligible target for the card at the point targets are chosen. Which is considerably easier than it may otherwise be given you know when the card is coming (for best results ensure Yakety Sax is playing for the duration of the Showdown ).

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Bradley Lacke
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Well damn, I've been playing to wrong too.
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k c
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Holy smokes.

I may have been playing it wrong all this time too.
Edit: It seems like Dash might only help if you can get out of range, instead of out of line.

Unless someone else can clarify better, It seems like it should work the same as all the other AI cards do (which is not how I've been playing it either).

It's not a Pick Target option like other AI cards, so Priority Token shouldn't matter here. It basically says to:
1. "target a random survivor in the Trample Zone".
2. (flow/survival opportunity)
3. Full move through and past the target.

It does not say to stay in the trample zone, or only go in a straight line. (Edit: It could easily be Poot's intent for it to stay in the zone, but without clarification, one could only assume).

The rulebook covers "Forward, Back, Away, and Toward", but not Through. The card tells us to go through and past, which seems easy enough to follow.

I think it is the fact that the card calls it the "Trample Zone" that made me originally think it only stayed in the zone.

There's a FAQ entry about moving monsters only in a straight line, but it is specifically addressing when something tells the survivor/monster to "move in a straight line". The word "straight" is not on this card.

With the new "Full move through" text, it seems that it would take the shortest route to the targeted survivor, then what? Continue at the same line slope it used to get there, or just go straight through the survivor at the point of collision (until it runs out of movement). Personally, I'd have it just go straight once it begins to trample the target.


For reference, the previous FAQ clarification text for Diabolical is:

"Usually, when a monster full moves towards a target, they stop when they become adjacent to them. This card, however, is intended to move the Antelope through the target, and trample them in the process."

The 1.5 card text is:

"At the end of the Monster's turn, target a random survivor in the Trample Zone."

(Trample Zone diagram)

(Flow/Survival Opportunity)

"Full move through the target (move the monster through and past the survivor). If there is no target, full move forward."

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BG.EXE
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Huh.

I gotta say, every single thing on the card makes it seem like a straight line is the intent. Except the fact it doesn’t say it.

Huh.

Well too late now my new campaign won’t be at level 3s for a bit XD
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Mark Watson
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kcrandall15 wrote:

With the new "Full move through" text, it seems that it would take the shortest route to the targeted survivor, then what? Continue at the same line slope it used to get there, or just go straight through the survivor at the point of collision (until it runs out of movement). Personally, I'd have it just go straight once it begins to trample the target.

The rules only limit the way you can get there (shortest possible route). There's nothing after that in the book AFAIK, and the clarification on the card simply states you must move past the survivor, but it doesn't restrict how that move is carried out, so it would be up to the Monster Controller to decide. I wouldn't argue if they opted to move it in a straight line (insofar as that's possible; you do still have to make a full movement, so if there were a board edge in the way you'd have to turn), but that's simply for thematic reasons. As far as the rules go I believe they're free to have it start pulling donuts if they wish, provided they've moved through the target survivor via the shortest possible route first.
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Mr EXE,

This reply is because I have a concern for your survivor's safety.

Edit: Added a spoiler tag just in case...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Please note that SA level 2 has diabolical (not just level 3). I'd hate to hear about them going to hunt a level 2 (without Dash at least) and not realizing it was diabolical.
 
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Drake Coker
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Presumably a clever survivor can Dash out of the zone in the last flow of the prior AI card and thus not get targeted. That might be an issue for the actual target of the AI card though if things line up (since the Antelope will often move towards him after the last flow).

I forget, is there a Survival Opportunity between AI cards? I don't think there is.
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I'm pretty sure there isn't an opportunity between AI cards, only during flows.
A few AI cards have a 2nd or 3rd flow after the Move & Attack, but most seem to only have the flow before the Move & Attack Target.
Much of the time, even if you dashed far enough away during the previous AI flow, the SA (with a movement of 8) would probably still catch you for the trample.
The showdown board is only so big.

Edit: Wow, if this is the way it is supposed to be played, the SA is all but guaranteed to trample someone every round, and Dash won't help the survivor he just attacked. The only way to save the survivor that was just attacked from being trampled is for someone far enough away to be randomly selected and draw it away.
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Peter Weber
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One of the reasons why Diabolical is one of the most PITA abilities and why Leather set is so good, move into blind spot and then out into the diagonal after the act.
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Drake Coker
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I just played it with my new understanding on a level 2 and it was certainly a more challenging fight!
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Joshua Nash
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Dare I say it: you guys are way overthinking this.

If the intent wasn’t to have “trample zone” be a straight line, there would be NO diagram and the text would be something like “full move through the closest survivor in range.”

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BG.EXE
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kcrandall15 wrote:
Mr EXE,

This reply is because I have a concern for your survivor's safety.

Edit: Added a spoiler tag just in case...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Please note that SA level 2 has diabolical (not just level 3). I'd hate to hear about them going to hunt a level 2 (without Dash at least) and not realizing it was diabolical.


Oh, I skipped level 2 Antelopes entirely in my first campaign. Good looking out though because I was planning to do a lot of them in my second one! I did mostly Level 2 Lions and Level 1 Phoenix during that time and the payout was meh.
 
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Mark Watson
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Olvenskol wrote:

That might be an issue for the actual target of the AI card though if things line up (since the Antelope will often move towards him after the last flow).

The trample zone goes a lot more to the sides than it does front or rear. I prefer to use two teams for this one and just play the odds - two survivors at the near limit of the side zone can usually dash out of range of the Antelope, and there's a much higher chance of it hitting them than a single survivor in front of it. The trick is getting it to run back and forth between teams each turn.
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Drake Coker
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JPN38 wrote:
Dare I say it: you guys are way overthinking this.

If the intent wasn’t to have “trample zone” be a straight line, there would be NO diagram and the text would be something like “full move through the closest survivor in range.”



*shrug*. RAW is pretty clear: the trample zone is used for targeting, but the monster follows the target using shortest route, inside the trample zone or not.

However, it is entirely possible that the intent is a straight move by the SA inside one of the trample lanes. It just doesn't say that.

Regardless, the diagram is necessary for the targeting step and definitely provides the survivors a technique for not getting run over (which is to get out of the way before targeting).
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Drake Coker
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Archonsod wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:

That might be an issue for the actual target of the AI card though if things line up (since the Antelope will often move towards him after the last flow).

The trample zone goes a lot more to the sides than it does front or rear. I prefer to use two teams for this one and just play the odds - two survivors at the near limit of the side zone can usually dash out of range of the Antelope, and there's a much higher chance of it hitting them than a single survivor in front of it. The trick is getting it to run back and forth between teams each turn.


Your approach sounds effective. Good thinking!

Just to check your first sentence, though. You do realize the trample zone goes to the board edge in all four directions, right? It's not just squares we see in the diagram.
 
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Archonsod wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:

That might be an issue for the actual target of the AI card though if things line up (since the Antelope will often move towards him after the last flow).

The trample zone goes a lot more to the sides than it does front or rear. I prefer to use two teams for this one and just play the odds - two survivors at the near limit of the side zone can usually dash out of range of the Antelope, and there's a much higher chance of it hitting them than a single survivor in front of it. The trick is getting it to run back and forth between teams each turn.


I'm not sure this is true. I always understood that The trample zone extends infinitely past the diagram (see the blue arrows). I believe it's wider than taller only because of the room on the card itself.
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Sum
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Olvenskol wrote:
JPN38 wrote:
Dare I say it: you guys are way overthinking this.

If the intent wasn’t to have “trample zone” be a straight line, there would be NO diagram and the text would be something like “full move through the closest survivor in range.”



*shrug*. RAW is pretty clear: the trample zone is used for targeting, but the monster follows the target using shortest route, inside the trample zone or not.

However, it is entirely possible that the intent is a straight move by the SA inside one of the trample lanes. It just doesn't say that.

Regardless, the diagram is necessary for the targeting step and definitely provides the survivors a technique for not getting run over (which is to get out of the way before targeting).


I agree, I think this is what RAW says. However, I don't think it is the intent. If nobody is in the antelope's trample path, he runs forward. If someone is on the trample path, he runs toward them and past them on the trample path. But if someone starts on the trample path, then dashes off it, he bee lines for them and then arbitrarily does whatever the monster controller wants??? One of these things is not like the others.

Further, if the intent was to have the antelope trample someone, then the whole trample path thing is not needed. And if the antelope is willing to deviate from the trample path to knock someone over, why is he only willing to do it only if they start on the path and dash away? And what does full move through mean on a board where the object is made of 4 squares, it's not clear (of course you can guess, but it is not clear).

I think we will just continue to play it as we have, if for no other reason than to avoid monster controller shenanigans. Besides, this is at the end of the turn. If you wanted to dash you could always do it on the AI card. But, the one thing that bugs me is the card is called diabolical...
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Drake Coker
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Fair statements Sum.

The path is needed to select targeting, so it is not unnecessary under either reading. It definitely does allow survivors to dash out of the way if they can find the right time to do so. Often, three of the four survivors will be able to do so by Dashing during the last flow of the AI card.

The target of that AI might find it more difficult because, often, the SA will move towards him after that Dash opportunity, make it more likely that the SA will line up the trample zone again. The monster controller could often help the survivor by "shenanigans".

So, RAW, it all works and nothing is unnecessary. The counter-argument is that it feels wrong. I agree!

But, still, lots of things have felt wrong and the community or Poots has settled on RAW as being correct. So, the real question becomes, is the text of Diabolical an error, or have we just been lead to mis-interpreting it and RAW is intended.

From playing it RAW now, I can say RAW is workable, but more difficult. Since SA is kind of easy, that's not a bad thing

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chang chang

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im a total noob. but i think jpn and sumanye are right.
when you dash after an AI card the antelope would try to reach you by which ever path (we play him as he try to take the path the trample the most survivor)

but on trample. it moves on that zone only. if a survivor is on the zone it would trample him/her; if not it would just move forward.

we just play antelooe lvl 2; and again NOOB. we study the dash rules for a while (just got dash) but this monster at lvl 2 is really fun.

we try to bait it as much as possible (our plan got screw quite a few times) by having someone on the trample zone (which i think by the diagram extend all the way to edges) dash forward to end right in front of antelope movement. when it didnt work because AI card was pretty bad lol

sumanye wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
JPN38 wrote:
Dare I say it: you guys are way overthinking this.

If the intent wasn’t to have “trample zone” be a straight line, there would be NO diagram and the text would be something like “full move through the closest survivor in range.”



*shrug*. RAW is pretty clear: the trample zone is used for targeting, but the monster follows the target using shortest route, inside the trample zone or not.

However, it is entirely possible that the intent is a straight move by the SA inside one of the trample lanes. It just doesn't say that.

Regardless, the diagram is necessary for the targeting step and definitely provides the survivors a technique for not getting run over (which is to get out of the way before targeting).


I agree, I think this is what RAW says. However, I don't think it is the intent. If nobody is in the antelope's trample path, he runs forward. If someone is on the trample path, he runs toward them and past them on the trample path. But if someone starts on the trample path, then dashes off it, he bee lines for them and then arbitrarily does whatever the monster controller wants??? One of these things is not like the others.

Further, if the intent was to have the antelope trample someone, then the whole trample path thing is not needed. And if the antelope is willing to deviate from the trample path to knock someone over, why is he only willing to do it only if they start on the path and dash away? And what does full move through mean on a board where the object is made of 4 squares, it's not clear (of course you can guess, but it is not clear).

I think we will just continue to play it as we have, if for no other reason than to avoid monster controller shenanigans. Besides, this is at the end of the turn. If you wanted to dash you could always do it on the AI card. But, the one thing that bugs me is the card is called diabolical...
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Michael Weber
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JPN38 wrote:
Dare I say it: you guys are way overthinking this.

If the intent wasn’t to have “trample zone” be a straight line, there would be NO diagram and the text would be something like “full move through the closest survivor in range.”



I'm sorry man, but I think you are under-thinking it (I guess that word doesnt exist but whatever )

There are two steps.
The targeting step. And the movement step.

The targeting step targets a random survivor in the trample zone. Then you have a picture what the trample zone is.

Flow

Then it moves through the target. Nowhere does it say anything about only move in straight lines.


This is very clear.
If people want to start interpreting how Poots might have meant that ability to work, then more power to them. But if they dont do it this way they are not following the text on the card and therefore playing a houserule version that makes the game easier.
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kcrandall15 wrote:

I'm not sure this is true. I always understood that The trample zone extends infinitely past the diagram (see the blue arrows). I believe it's wider than taller only because of the room on the card itself.


It does, missed them when checking the card last night blush

sumanye wrote:

Further, if the intent was to have the antelope trample someone, then the whole trample path thing is not needed.

If the intent was to restrict the Antelope to the trample path then the diagram would be on the second part of the flow in the actual attack, similar to most other monsters with special attack patterns.
The target restriction would suggest this isn't the case. What the card is doing is ensuring the Antelope moves at the end of it's turn, and the random targeting means it's usually going to do so unpredictably. I believe that's the intent behind it - it forces players to think a turn ahead in terms of positioning or risk wasting most of the survivor turn simply chasing the Antelope rather than doing damage. Forcing it to move in a straight line on the other hand makes it fairly simple to manipulate in the survivor's favour.


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chang chang

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hmmmm.
the way we are baiting him wont change, but the fact taht he only targets the tramble zone and ni actually move there but chance its target is starting to make sense (less thematic i hguess)

what are the chances that Poots make an official clarificacion on thus? or no really big of a doubt for most?
 
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cryion wrote:


This is very clear.
If people want to start interpreting how Poots might have meant that ability to work, then more power to them. But if they dont do it this way they are not following the text on the card and therefore playing a houserule version that makes the game easier.


It obviously isn't clear or this thread wouldn't exist . Although as I said before I do agree this is RAW.

I would also argue this makes the antelope easier. In the case where the antelope must stick to the path and you don't have dash, a survivor will likely get trampled and the antelope runs away. In this RAW case you describe with no dash, a survivor gets trampled and the monster controller can place the antelope in a very convenient spot for the other survivors instead of running away. Clearly easier.

If you do have dash, and the antelope must stick to the path, nobody gets trampled, but you use survival and the antelope runs away. In RAW, someone gets trampled, but antelope doesn't run away, no survival is spent, and the antelope can be placed in a convenient spot. For a level 2 antelope, this seems also seems easier. I cannot comment on level 3 because I haven't fought one.

Archonsod wrote:

sumanye wrote:

Further, if the intent was to have the antelope trample someone, then the whole trample path thing is not needed.

If the intent was to restrict the Antelope to the trample path then the diagram would be on the second part of the flow in the actual attack, similar to most other monsters with special attack patterns.
The target restriction would suggest this isn't the case. What the card is doing is ensuring the Antelope moves at the end of it's turn, and the random targeting means it's usually going to do so unpredictably. I believe that's the intent behind it - it forces players to think a turn ahead in terms of positioning or risk wasting most of the survivor turn simply chasing the Antelope rather than doing damage. Forcing it to move in a straight line on the other hand makes it fairly simple to manipulate in the survivor's favour.




Or the card could have been the same but said the antelope sticks to the path. In either case (yours or mine), a lack of evidence is not evidence, so who really knows.


After more consideration though, I guess I will play RAW even though I don't like it as you suggest Drake. If this is what most people do, I would like to avoid diverting my KDM experience from others as much as possible.

Also, another interesting discussion!

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