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Subject: Expansions ??? rss

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Halifax
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Just wondering if there's been any official word if this game is to have numerous expansions like FF tends to do with other titles. As this is more card/tile oriented than minis, it's the perfect way to intro more content and new mechanics.

Just wondering - could be a deciding factor, especially among those feeling the game is limited/light in it's current state.
 
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Throknor
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it hasn’t even been out a week.
That being said, it’s FFG and already about soldout. I’d lay bet dollars to doughnuts on Yes.
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I just didnt know if it was part of the plan, the model, or not-- like we knew Arkham LCG was from the start.

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John
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I don’t think FFG usually launches a game saying “There will be expansions.” But given their record, I think expansions are pretty much a given, unless they only have the Fallout license for a bizarrely short period of time.

My guess is the first expansion will be announced in the first quarter of 2018 and available by late summer.
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Michael Coniff
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It did take, a year maybe, from the time Rebellion was released to the time they announced an expansion? I might be wrong on that but from what I've seen, the Fallout game is much more receptive to expansions then I see Star Wars Rebellion being (I've not played Rise of the Empire, but I I believe I am getting it for christmas).

I would definitely put all my board game budget for a year on FFG making expansions for this game.
 
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Christopher
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Licensed FFG games that aren't Star Wars, Cthulhu, or LCGs have a spotty expansion history so I wouldn't assume there will be multiple expansions.
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Robert Yates

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With a company like FFG - there is no such thing as not considering them, especially with a licensed property. A team and a lead make a pitch, which includes potential for expansions if the property is successful/there is demand.

So yes, I would bet money that FFG plans on the potential for expansion for almost everything.

They don't wait and decide after sales, "oh hey an expansion might make money." It is considered before the first ruleset is even complete.
 
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Christopher
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Nightsbane wrote:
With a company like FFG - there is no such thing as not considering them, especially with a licensed property. A team and a lead make a pitch, which includes potential for expansions if the property is successful/there is demand.

So yes, I would bet money that FFG plans on the potential for expansion for almost everything.

They don't wait and decide after sales, "oh hey an expansion might make money." It is considered before the first ruleset is even complete.


There's a difference between "has considered the potential for expansions" and "will release multiple expansions". Gears of War was a work of genius, still waiting for expansions...
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Robert Yates

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False equivalency:

1. This was released in 2011 - the market was in no where near the position it is in now in terms of wide appeal.
2. The game did not do that well, comparatively.
3. The license popularity is a drop in the bucket compare to Fallout, due to console exclusivity, shooter vs. rpg, and just general lack of originality of the product.
 
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Christopher
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Nightsbane wrote:
False equivalency:

1. This was released in 2011 - the market was in no where near the position it is in now in terms of wide appeal.
2. The game did not do that well, comparatively.
3. The license popularity is a drop in the bucket compare to Fallout, due to console exclusivity, shooter vs. rpg, and just general lack of originality of the product.


1. Even if it's true that it's more likely today that a non-boardgamer will buy a licensed boardgame than it was in 2011 (and it might not be), that doesn't matter because the issue is resources. If more people are likely to buy a licensed game today then more people are also likely to buy a non-licensed game.
2. How many copies did it sell, and what are you comparing it's sales to?
3. Gears of War was massively popular in 2011, it was the iconic franchise for the best-selling game console of it's generation at the time.

Lack of originality of the product? It had a completely unique card-driven mechanic never before seen in a dungeon crawl and a thematic cover system that perfectly replicated the feel of the videogame. It was also a pure co-op dungeon crawl (rare at the time) with gameplay that solved the alpha gamer problem that plagued co-ops of it's day. To say the game lacked originality in it's design is just flat-out wrong.


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Robert Yates

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No, it is an assumption - on your part, not wrong. I am talking directly about the license, which is about as bland as it comes (and I owned an xbox and the games). It is still over-sized dudes in space armor shooting aliens. Bland and overdone.

The popularity of the game at the time honestly doesn't matter, it is about brand recognition and mainstream brand popularity. Gears of War in the grand scheme of things was a flash in the pan, that has not been able to capture the success of interest it initially had since. It was on one platform, and again, a cover shooter (of which there were and are many).

You are comparing that to an RPG that has been out now across multiple platforms and in multiple styles for the past 20 years. It is an rpg, and has MUCH more mass market appeal than Gears of War. It doesn't get much more false equivalence than your comparison.

Even so, I am sure they planned expansions for Gears, but the lackluster response and general death of the license mean that they weren't going to pursue it. I know the game mechanics are highly regarded, but the license makes the game itself not worth further investment.

Look at World of Warcraft, which it massively larger than Gears, and yet had not seen continued board game development. Why? Similar reasons - the games were released pre-board game renaissance and did not do all that well (compared to now). So, they kind of missed the timing there. Also, the license is in decline. Still, it is much more popular than Gears - and one could say more well known that Fallout, and yet...

Fallout has more cult appeal than either title. Just do a search on Target.com for instance, and compare the merchandise that exists for the Fallout universe.

Finally "If more people are likely to buy a licensed game today then more people are also likely to buy a non-licensed game" - this just an assumption and made up, that's not how sales and marketing work. There are plenty of times that people are more willing to buy licensed products than non-licensed products - even today. That is why they sacrifice profits for license in the first place.

More people probably buy the Target licensed exclusives that are terrible than half the greatest games of the past year. The hobby is growing, but the mainstream still doesn't visit BGG or care about what was most liked by nerds this year. They see Oregon Trail and go bananas.
 
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Robert Yates

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I will double down and say I bet 50 geek gold that an expansion or two has already been greenlit. Why? They sold out immediately, and when nerds can't have what they want it only makes them want it more, over-inflating the perceived value of the title and hunt for it. They will increase stock slow enough to keep it repeatedly out of stock and then drop an expansion, sooner than later.

This is what FFG does time, and time, and time again.
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Charlie Theel
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Nightsbane wrote:
I will double down and say I bet 50 geek gold that an expansion or two has already been greenlit. Why? They sold out immediately, and when nerds can't have what they want it only makes them want it more, over-inflating the perceived value of the title and hunt for it. They will increase stock slow enough to keep it repeatedly out of stock and then drop an expansion, sooner than later.

This is what FFG does time, and time, and time again.


Agree. Also, expanding this game would be dead simple. You could do scenarios and expand the card library endlessly. You could even replace old cards to change up old storylines. Hell, they could even take a page out of 7th Continent's book and have multiple copies of a single number. When you are supposed to stage card 42, you shuffle the two copies of 42 and stage one randomly.

More monsters, tiles, and characters would all be easy.
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J P
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Nightsbane wrote:
I am talking directly about the license, which is about as bland as it comes (and I owned an xbox and the games). It is still over-sized dudes in space armor shooting aliens. Bland and overdone.

The popularity of the game at the time honestly doesn't matter, it is about brand recognition and mainstream brand popularity. Gears of War in the grand scheme of things was a flash in the pan, that has not been able to capture the success of interest it initially had since. It was on one platform, and again, a cover shooter (of which there were and are many).

You are comparing that to an RPG that has been out now across multiple platforms and in multiple styles for the past 20 years.



This is true. Gears of War may have been briefly popular, but in the grand scheme of things it was an entirely forgettable franchise (and that's putting it nicely).

Fallout, on the other hand, has been around since 1997. It has staying power and a following that puts it in another league of IPs.

Having said that, while they may have had expansions on the drawing board, I would speculate that they were waiting to see how well it did before going too far into pre-production. I suspect that's also what they did with Rebellion, which didn't see an expansion for over a year. So, I wouldn't expect anything until at least late 2018.
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Charlie Theel
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I don't think Rebellion is a proper comparison. That expansion would take much more development than a Fallout expansion. You have to balance entirely new action decks, new leaders, new units, a whole new combat system, etc.

A new Fallout expansion could be just content with minimal new mechanisms/systems.
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J P
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charlest wrote:
I don't think Rebellion is a proper comparison. That expansion would take much more development than a Fallout expansion. You have to balance entirely new action decks, new leaders, new units, a whole new combat system, etc.

A new Fallout expansion could be just content with minimal new mechanisms/systems.


You're probably right. I haven't played Fallout yet, so I don't know exactly what an expansion might entail or how it could work.
 
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Aaron Day
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charlest wrote:
A new Fallout expansion could be just content with minimal new mechanisms/systems.

It appears that the Fallout game was designed with expansions in mind. A new expansion would need a couple scenario cards, a small punchboard, and a deck of cards. Other than the miniatures, that's exactly what comes in the smaller expansions for Eldrith Horror.

Also, for every Gears of War or Witcher that FFG makes that didn't get an expansion, you have an X-Com or Battlestar Galactica that did. But, you can't really compare the popularity of Gears of War with Fallout. It's not even close.
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Dave Horn
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How about we try to back up some of this speculation with actual facts. I see a lot of assumptions here based upon obvious dislike of the Gears series.

Fallout global sales: approx 31m source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/504477/global-all-time-u...

Gears global sales: 19m but does not count, Judgement, Ultimate, or Gears 4.

source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/gears-of-war-series-sales-...

I love both series. But I am not convinced that Fallout video game series outsold Gears. If it did, I am not sure its much.

However, all that said. I don't think video games sales mean a lot when it comes to board game sales. It wouldn't surprise me if Fallout board game out sells Gears, because of changes in the industry since Gears came out. Frickin Gamestop is selling it.

I also am convinced that FFG already has Fallout expansions lined up... of course, I thought the same thing with other FFG games, Gears being the most notable.



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J P
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Selurevad wrote:
How about we try to back up some of this speculation with actual facts. I see a lot of assumptions here based upon obvious dislike of the Gears series.

Fallout global sales: approx 31m source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/504477/global-all-time-u...

Gears global sales: 19m but does not count, Judgement, Ultimate, or Gears 4.

source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/gears-of-war-series-sales-...

I love both series. But I am not convinced that Fallout video game series outsold Gears. If it did, I am not sure its much.

However, all that said. I don't think video games sales mean a lot when it comes to board game sales. It wouldn't surprise me if Fallout board game out sells Gears, because of changes in the industry since Gears came out. Frickin Gamestop is selling it.

I also am convinced that FFG already has Fallout expansions lined up... of course, I thought the same thing with other FFG games, Gears being the most notable.





Those stats don't take into account the original Fallouts 1, 2, and Tactics. Also, remember that when Fallout 1 & 2 came out is when the internet was like the Wild West and piracy was rampant. A better way to get those stats would be to see if you can get sales statistics of hint books and strategy guides.

Fun fact: It was known, back in the heyday of PC gaming, that Ultima VII: The Black Gate was one of the most pirated games of all time. How could they know this? They sold less than 100,000 of the actual game, but ten times as many hint books.
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Dave Horn
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I am sure no one would argue those games sales would be a barely unnoticeable blip compared to modern video game sales.

I also think people who would be surprised at Gears numbers are totally discounting and maybe not even aware of the entire e-sports industry.
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Robert Yates

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Selurevad wrote:
I am sure no one would argue those games sales would be a barely unnoticeable blip compared to modern video game sales.

I also think people who would be surprised at Gears numbers are totally discounting and maybe not even aware of the entire e-sports industry.


There was nothing in what I or anyone else said that had to do with disliking gears - this is about mass market appeal for a board game. That also had nothing to do with video game sales figures, again it has to do with culture and appeal. Fallout is an rpg, gears is a shooter. Shooters are on a never ending conveyor belt into oblivion with newer and shinier behind it. An rpg, can be timeless. This is why it doesn't matter how many of each sold, when it comes to brand appeal and board game lasting culture.

For just a singular example, no one (outside of personal hobbyists) in the esports community gives a hoot about the board game equivalent. It is a board game based on their job, and outside their wheelhouse in most cases. I am sure there are some that still play board games, of course - but not all of them, and certainly not all of them choosing one based on the game they practice for 8+ hours a day as their top choice. Furthermore, the esports community is relatively tiny.
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Selurevad wrote:
I am sure no one would argue those games sales would be a barely unnoticeable blip compared to modern video game sales.

I also think people who would be surprised at Gears numbers are totally discounting and maybe not even aware of the entire e-sports industry.


I don’t really believe that. The actual financial sales numbers are irrelevant. What matters is the number of players, which is why I brought up piracy. Everyone I knew in the 90s had all the Sierra On-Line and LucasArts Games. Not one of them payed for them. I’m sure those players numbered in the millions. Everyone played King’s Quest and Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island, etc. without spending a dime. I wouldn’t be surprised if the number of people who played Fallout without buying it is pretty high, too. Almost everyone I’ve met from my generation has played Fallout.
 
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Dave Horn
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Nightsbane wrote:

There was nothing in what I or anyone else said that had to do with disliking gears - this is about mass market appeal for a board game. That also had nothing to do with video game sales figures, again it has to do with culture and appeal. Fallout is an rpg, gears is a shooter. Shooters are on a never ending conveyor belt into oblivion with newer and shinier behind it. An rpg, can be timeless. This is why it doesn't matter how many of each sold, when it comes to brand appeal and board game lasting culture.


Robert - there is so much subjective opinion in your posts that even in the same post where you are saying personal opinion has nothing to do with it, you go on and back up your belief with more personal opinion with rpg vs shooter nonsense.

You guys may be right, I'd love to see someone back it up with more than personal opinion and anecdotal evidence.

I tend to agree with you, my gut tells me Fallout probably is a bigger franchise. But when I actually try to find evidence to support it, I can't.







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Christopher
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There's a reason shooters are a dime a dozen; they sell like hotcakes. This notion that an RPG franchise has infinitely more appeal than a shooter franchise by nature is baseless. Besides, many would describe the modern Fallout games as FPS games with RPG elements tacked on. The modern games likely wouldn't have anywhere's near the following they do if they were traditional top-down RPGs.

I'm still waiting for the cited sales numbers on the GoW boardgame confirming it sold poorly. The game is considered a cherished classic by a whole lot of gamers, and the idea that the license is weak is not borne out by sales figures and the series' popularity on the esports scene.

My main point is simply that FFG doesn't tend to expand their licensed games nearly as eagerly as their non-licensed games. The reason for that is, obviously, that the cost of the license requires a higher sales standard to merit devoting resources to expansions. Look at the original Doom boardgame, a revolutionary dungeon crawler. It got one low-print run expansion before getting abandoned in favor of Descent, similar mechanics in a controllable IP. Very few licenses transcend the hobby and have proven starpower to draw in new audiences (Star Wars and Lovecraft, essentially). Look at FFG's history with videogame licensed boardgames. It's a long line of forgotten games with few expansions.
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Christopher
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Selurevad wrote:
Nightsbane wrote:

There was nothing in what I or anyone else said that had to do with disliking gears - this is about mass market appeal for a board game. That also had nothing to do with video game sales figures, again it has to do with culture and appeal. Fallout is an rpg, gears is a shooter. Shooters are on a never ending conveyor belt into oblivion with newer and shinier behind it. An rpg, can be timeless. This is why it doesn't matter how many of each sold, when it comes to brand appeal and board game lasting culture.


Robert - there is so much subjective opinion in your posts that even in the same post where you are saying personal opinion has nothing to do with it, you go on and back up your belief with more personal opinion with rpg vs shooter nonsense.

You guys may be right, I'd love to see someone back it up with more than personal opinion and anecdotal evidence.

I tend to agree with you, my gut tells me Fallout probably is a bigger franchise. But when I actually try to find evidence to support it, I can't.


His entire argument revolves around his love for Fallout and disdain for shooters (which modern Fallout games share heavy DNA with). Fallout is an intensely loved franchise by gamers and the geek community, but this notion that it's a mainstream phenomenon is a little ridiculous. The average person has never heard of it. They have heard of Halo, and World of Warcraft (another FFG game that got no expansions), and more likely Gears of War due to all the marketing for it.
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