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Subject: How to maximize XP gain as a mindthief? (** minor lvl 1 card spoilers **) rss

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Dor Levi
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My friends and I started playing a week ago, and even though we only covered two scenarios so far (1&2), I wonder if there's a bit of imbalance in the amount of base XP different classes can gain each scenario.

We're playing as a 4 person party, with the Cragheart, Tinkerer, Scoundrel and the Mindthief.

After those two scenarios, our base (scenario bonus excluded) xp for each character is:
Cragheart - 30 (13 + 17)
Scoundrel - 29 (12 + 17)
Tinkerer - 28 (13 + 15)
Mindthied - 26 (12 + 14)

Looking at the base cards, it seems like the Mindthief has no way of competing with Cragheart cards like Backup ammunition (potential 4 xp) or Opposing strike (potential 3 xp).

I know 2 games might be a bit too early to judge, but I do wonder if I can optimize the Mindthief's xp gain somehow.

One thing I did figured out I should do, is discard my active augment card prior to resting, so I could both get another card to play and cycle to get the xp reward again.

Any other interesting tips?

Thanks!
 
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Frederik Hede
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I wouldnt get too hung up on the whole exp game. But i didnt find it that difficult to get exp as mindthief. You get exp every time you activate a augment, and your cards align pretty well. bottom of "perverse edge" is nice with stun and exp, and sets up your "frigid apparition". Depending on your augment "submissive affliction" is a decent choice as well as fearsome blade. And remember you get exp when you complete a scenario as well
 
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Matthew Kameron
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I actually don't like getting much XP - I like levelling slowly. So I just completely ignore XP gain in my tactical decisions - you will level eventually!

Plus, (gaming hat here), you actually are more powerful the more slowly you level, since your gold:level ratio is higher!
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Chris Kessel
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That's only ~13% difference in XP scored. That seems like a remarkably balanced XP distribution.
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Ben Turner
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We have almost the same party - my mindthief is the highest in XP right now.

Maybe I'm just betting at farming XP; but I doubt that. I suspect it's more balanced than even that balanced spread shows.
 
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Matt Ziemer
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If you search hard enough you will find a pile of posts on here with a similar issue for most of the starting classes. They can all gain a tonne of xp or none depending how they're played.

Also for good advice search the hot posts under strategy and one of the top couple will be a post with links to strategy posts for all classes. I've found that really helpful.

I've played mind thief twice and both times found her to be really good at getting xp. Some of my tips:

Reuse augments( you caught this one already, gj.) One thing to add to this. If you cycle multiple augments you'll get a lot more xp and be more versatile. A lot of players recommend just dropping 1 augment and leaving it unless you need it back at a rest but I found my mindthieves kicked but and I usually brought 2-4 different augments and swapped in what I needed round to round.

Her ranged Atks are good to make you versatile and have xp each use and aren't lost. Usually a good way to get frost generated as well. Where as crag and tinkerer for example usually need to lose cards for xp, the mind thief can just keep farming them.

I alway liked the rats summons. If used properly they can be like an extra player on the board and that's 2 xp.

When you see the end is coming near dump all your lost cards for a bunch of xp. This goes for all classes. It is good to hang onto those card to make sure you don't run out but if you want xp you need use them. It's a fine balance. I usually gain about half my xp in the last few turns. It's possible your buddies are getting more as they are doing this more effective than you, which wipes the enemies before you get a chance to gain xp.

I like to try pick one non-lost card each turn that will help with my strategy and get me one free (not lost card) xp. If you manage that you'll have tonnes of xp. It's not always possible though but the mindthief has plenty of these cards available which makes it easier with her.

Good luck.
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Swampy Crocker
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The best way to get a ton of XP in a scenario is to draw
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The battle goal requiring you to get <7
.

Both my Spellweaver and Mindtheif were struggling to get high amounts of XP. Both times I picked that battle goal I got over 15 XP. Mind you, I have been averaging 7-10 per scenario, be for the added for completing the scenario, so that nearly doubled my XP output.
 
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Dor Levi
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Thanks anyone for the tips and info, we have another session today, hopefully playing both scenarios 3 and 4, I'll update if I fared better.
 
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Stefan
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@SwampMonster: Why do you put the battle goal into a spoiler window and beneath that explain again what the battle goal does?

@Topic: This is just a matter of statistics I think. Apart from that, if this is truely XP values without scenario bonus then all of you are doing good, since 12+ is quite nice at early game. After unlocking some content, you will however realize that there are classes which gain XP much quicker and others which are way slower. Same goes for looting gold. Not every class is equally good at everything.

If you really want to maximize XP gain, you just need to check, which cards give you the most XP and take them to your deck and then play non lost effects with XP as often as possible and when the scenario is almost finished, play all of the high XP lost effects (and while resting, don't drop any of these). But then again, this will just make you less effective (despite the comment about that in the rules, maximizing XP is NOT the most efficient way to play your character in order grant scenario success) and you could instead just turn up the difficulty if your games are so easy, that they allow for XP farming - which will result in more gold and bonus XP gained. Once you reached lvl 9, you will have no more use for the XP anyways.
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Swampy Crocker
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danom wrote:
@SwampMonster: Why do you put the battle goal into a spoiler window and beneath that explain again what the battle goal does?

@Topic: This is just a matter of statistics I think. Apart from that, if this is truely XP values without scenario bonus then all of you are doing good, since 12+ is quite nice at early game. After unlocking some content, you will however realize that there are classes which gain XP much quicker and others which are way slower. Same goes for looting gold. Not every class is equally good at everything.

If you really want to maximize XP gain, you just need to check, which cards give you the most XP and take them to your deck and then play non lost effects with XP as often as possible and when the scenario is almost finished, play all of the high XP lost effects (and while resting, don't drop any of these). But then again, this will just make you less effective (despite the comment about that in the rules, maximizing XP is NOT the most efficient way to play your character in order grant scenario success) and you could instead just turn up the difficulty if your games are so easy, that they allow for XP farming - which will result in more gold and bonus XP gained. Once you reached lvl 9, you will have no more use for the XP anyways.


I fixed it so it isn't so obvious- the issue is that I was thinking about the goal while typing and put that info in. I believe my post to be vague enough that there are no clues to what the battle goal does. Coincidences between things happen, so I could be talking about a battle goal where you have to heal monsters 5x (Which would just be silly).
 
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Dor Levi
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danom wrote:
This is just a matter of statistics I think. Apart from that, if this is truely XP values without scenario bonus then all of you are doing good, since 12+ is quite nice at early game.
...
you could instead just turn up the difficulty if your games are so easy, that they allow for XP farming

We're a group of players with lots of past experience in various tactical games and old fashioned d&d, so the base concepts of the game were pretty straight forward for us.

That said, we constantly find ourselves "talking too much" in the cards choice phase, and need to constantly remind ourselves to stop.

Given all of the above, and the fact we're at W/L of 3/0, we should, as suggested, up the difficulty level.


More on topic though, in our game yesterday (scenario 3), I played a lot more XP efficiently (minor scenario spoilers, and in case someone wants to discover the exact micro-tactics for themselves):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. Didn't play any loss cards for the first 2/3 of the scenario, to keep my hand as large as I can. This resulted in slower rest card loss, allowing to cycle through more cards every time for maximum xp.
2. Used a Minor Stamina Potion before the first rest to cycle 2 xp generating cards with maximum options available.
3. A lot of Perverse Edge -> Frigid Apparition (not on the same turn, obviously). Being a party of 4, the cluster of guards at the beginning allowed me to sometimes even use Perverse Edge on same turn with a top action that also generates xp in melee.
4. The first card I lost (which was due to short rest) was Into the Night, which while unfortunate as it's a great card IMO, has no xp generation.
5. Last 3 turns of the scenario (we were at 16/20 kills needed), used Gnawing Horde, Empathetic Assault and Fearsome Blade, all for the 2 xp loss effect.

 
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Matt Ziemer
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molejo wrote:
danom wrote:
This is just a matter of statistics I think. Apart from that, if this is truely XP values without scenario bonus then all of you are doing good, since 12+ is quite nice at early game.
...
you could instead just turn up the difficulty if your games are so easy, that they allow for XP farming

We're a group of players with lots of past experience in various tactical games and old fashioned d&d, so the base concepts of the game were pretty straight forward for us.

That said, we constantly find ourselves "talking too much" in the cards choice phase, and need to constantly remind ourselves to stop.

Given all of the above, and the fact we're at W/L of 3/0, we should, as suggested, up the difficulty level.


More on topic though, in our game yesterday (scenario 3), I played a lot more XP efficiently (minor scenario spoilers, and in case someone wants to discover the exact micro-tactics for themselves):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. Didn't play any loss cards for the first 2/3 of the scenario, to keep my hand as large as I can. This resulted in slower rest card loss, allowing to cycle through more cards every time for maximum xp.
2. Used a Minor Stamina Potion before the first rest to cycle 2 xp generating cards with maximum options available.
3. A lot of Perverse Edge -> Frigid Apparition (not on the same turn, obviously). Being a party of 4, the cluster of guards at the beginning allowed me to sometimes even use Perverse Edge on same turn with a top action that also generates xp in melee.
4. The first card I lost (which was due to short rest) was Into the Night, which while unfortunate as it's a great card IMO, has no xp generation.
5. Last 3 turns of the scenario (we were at 16/20 kills needed), used Gnawing Horde, Empathetic Assault and Fearsome Blade, all for the 2 xp loss effect.



Yep looks like your getting er figured out now. Your enemies don't stand a chance.
 
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Guðbrandur Magnússon
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How did your mindthief wind up with less Xp than the rest?

The scoundrel seem like by far the slowest Xp generator (but fastest gold generator), meanwhile the mindthief and Cragheart rocket forward (right after the Weaver) and the Brute plodd's along just ahead of the Scoundrel.

Classes generating resources differently is a design choice, and it's actually pretty cool, I just wonder how that weird lineup of XP generation happened, did the mindthief miss a game? That class is definitely upper Tier in the starting lineup when it comes to XP generation.

I'm legitimately baffled, you wrote that you got 6XP in the first mission (Pre-Scenario reward), how did that happen?! Did you count the Xp from your augments? That ought to be 1 or 2 XP. Did you not use Fearsome Blade, Submissive affliction at least once each for 1XP each? Did you not play ANY lose cards? Those net you 1 or 2 XP each. I haven't ever generated less than 11 XP as mindthief (I wasnt even trying!) so I just sit here baffled and wonder, how'd you manage such low numbers?

PS: Yes, picking up your augments when your hand would otherwise be an odd-number is a good idea, it will net you an extra turn before you exhaust out.
 
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Lucius Nexx
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I'm really curious to see how the Spellweaver makes the most XP.

My Skaven Vermling Mindthief seems to be duelling constantly with the Cragheart for the most XP we're usually in 2-3 of each other each scenario and the Spellweaver is way behind.
 
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Eric
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LuciusNexx wrote:
I'm really curious to see how the Spellweaver makes the most XP.

My Skaven Vermling Mindthief seems to be duelling constantly with the Cragheart for the most XP we're usually in 2-3 of each other each scenario and the Spellweaver is way behind.


Our Spellweaver, 4 players, is leading in XP after 4 scenario playings. We had to do #1 twice. She frequently gets 3 -4 xp each time she uses a couple of cards since she maximizes hitting multiple targets.

Our SW is close to lvl 3. Tinkerer is someplace between lvl 2 and 3. Scoundrel is going to hit lvl 2 when we go back to GH and I'm 5 XP short of lvl 2.

My MT is behind the group for two reasons. First I didn't know that I could play just the attack 1 portion of an augment to get the XP and not replace my currently played augment. I kept using the top of those cards for the attack 2 because I didn't want to lose my augment in play. I also had the battle goal that was in the spoiler once.



 
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Guðbrandur Magnússon
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Here's a lineup of cards that should net you a minimum 13 Xp every scenario and works really well:

Into the night. (Invis card)
Fearsome blade. (Push attack)
Feedback loop. (Jump move)
Gnawing Horde. (4 Move)
The Minds Weakness. (Damage buff)
Scurry. (Move+attack top)
Perverse Edge. (Bottom stun)
Empathetic Assault (Move+Heal)
Frigid Apparition (Frost = Stun)
Submissive Affliction (+Damage for conditions)

Cycling that deck nets you 4 Xp per rotation, that's probably around 11 XP in three rotations, before you factor in losses. It's okay to use the loose effect on one card before your first rest, usually that would be Feedback loop + loss on Gnashing Horde in the very first round, or using Fearsome Blade to make a Dramatic entrance into the Second room of a Scenario and maintaining momentum (Momentum is a loss-worthy effect).
Empathetic Assault can then be used to keep your bases covered in the latter half of the scenario and net you another 2 XP. Once you've used the loss on Gnashing Horde that's 14 XP easy.
The cards you can loose to damage and resting are in order: Submissive Affliction, Into the Night, Gnawing Horde. If you loose more then you need to start picking appart your most important tactics, which cards to loose depends on what's in your discard and how much distance you have yet to cover. Empathetic Assault is a huge safety-net card but it's often an OK sacrificial card, so is Fearsome Blade. You cant loose feedback loop if you still have to move a lot, scurry is the same, especially if you need to move and fight. If you loose Perverse Edge then Frigid Apparition goes right after it.
The exceptional endgame hand will have Perverse Edge, Frigid Apparition, Scurry and feedback loop or Fearsome Blade on it. You'd be able to Scurry + Perverse into the final fight, followed by Frigid + fearsome/Feedback to guarantee a good spot to continue the stun chain from and deal a ton of damage. You'll then short rest and, ideally, get another stun chain (and another 2 Xp) back to your hand.

Get the hang of this and your teammates will start lookin over at your XP wheel in disbelief as you net 15+ XP routinely.

Edit: Almost forgot, the level 2 summon is worth giving a chance, but I think you'll get better mileage out of the ranged attack if you don't have a Brute or if Melee is cluttered with 3 Melee players (Scoundrel, MT + Brute.) It's also a nice new alternate way to generate frost.
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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If you kill something with Frigid Apparition, can you still consume one ice to get 1 XP?

I guess since you choose whether or not to use your poison dagger before the attack and not after, you have to choose whether or not to use the ice before the attack and not after, thus you'll get the 1 xp even if you kill the target, right (assuming you made ice available last turn)?
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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My hand right now is:
Top cards: The Mind's Weakness, Fearsome Blade, Frigid Apparition, Scurry, Hostile Takeover
Bottom cards: Gnawing Horde, Feedback Loop, Into the Night, Perverse Edge, Empathetic Assault

My first time through my deck, I tend to gain very little XP, because I don't use any loss cards (it gives me 4 turns to play after a long rest). But the second (and third if needed) time through my deck give a lot of XP because I start losing cards rapidly.

So my first time through my deck, I'll probably get 1 XP from Perverse Edge's bottom, 1 XP from Hostile Takeover's top, 1 from Fearsome Blade's top, and 0-2 from Frigid Apparition depending on whether or not ice was available and whether or not I use a stamina potion to get it back.

Having just 3-5 XP after 5-7 turns (depending on stamina potion and short rest versus long rest) puts me pretty far behind my teammates that love burning loss cards early - a Tinkerer that starts with 12 cards, a Spellweaver that gets to recover all of his loss cards, and a Cragheart that loves to live life on the edge. I tend to be less useful than them early on (when multi-target cards are better and I'm not burning any loss cards), but the second time through my deck, I'm the MVP (when their hands are smaller and high single target damage is more important).



The second time through my deck tends to be the endgame, so I am willing to lose some or all of my cards (depending on how close we are to completing the goal, and how small my teammates' hands are).

I can use Fearsome Blade's bottom to get 2 XP instead of 1 and give myself an extra +4 move card that has a big attack, too, and I can use Hostile Takeover's bottom to get 2 XP instead of 1 for a pretty fun range 3 use.

I can use Empathetic Assault's top to get 2 XP instead of 0 for a 5 range fast initiative disarm (you can also choose to discard this card). I can use Gnawing Horde's top to get 2 XP instead of 0 at the expensive of a +4 move card (and give us a temporary tank).

I can use Frigid Apparition's bottom to get 1 XP instead of 0 or 1 (depending on ice) and give myself an extra +4 move card. This doesn't help with XP, but the extra +4 move card is nice.

I can use Perverse Edge's top for 1 XP for each negative condition on the target instead of getting 1 XP. Only on rare occasions will this help with XP gain. It's a good option to discard.

Mind's Weakness is only going to be used for its augment, and it'll give 1 XP every time you play the card (which might happen again your third time through the deck).

Feedback Loop can give 1 XP if you use it for its augment, but you're pretty much just keeping it around all game for its jump move and never getting any XP from it.

Scurry can give 1 XP and a big 2 range loot, but you can't move prior to looting and the top movement is so essential late game that I don't see myself using this card for XP ever.

Into the Night never gives XP. This is a good option to discard after doing a long rest while invisible (depending on whether or not movement or invisibility will be more useful late in the game).



To sum it up:
Two cards can give 2 XP the second (or third) time through your deck when you lose them, and probably gave 1 XP the first time you used them.
Two cards can give 2 XP the second (or third) time through your deck when you lose them, and didn't give any XP the first time you used them.
Two cards give 1XP nearly every time you use them.
One card will probably give just 1 XP all game.
The other three cards will pretty much never give you XP.


I always lag behind in XP early on in the scenario, but by the end, I'm up there with everyone else.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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gabrielrockman1 wrote:
If you kill something with Frigid Apparition, can you still consume one ice to get 1 XP?

I guess since you choose whether or not to use your poison dagger before the attack and not after, you have to choose whether or not to use the ice before the attack and not after, thus you'll get the 1 xp even if you kill the target, right (assuming you made ice available last turn)?


Correct. Consume ice before attacking.
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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Fizi wrote:
I actually don't like getting much XP - I like levelling slowly. So I just completely ignore XP gain in my tactical decisions - you will level eventually!

Plus, (gaming hat here), you actually are more powerful the more slowly you level, since your gold:level ratio is higher!


Having gained just 2 gold last night while gaining 15XP but needing to buy both leg and body gear and needing to save up to enhance my cards, I agree with you. Getting an extra perk and a couple of new cards to choose from and an extra point of health is decent, but I think gold would help me more than XP.
 
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Fizi wrote:
I actually don't like getting much XP - I like levelling slowly. So I just completely ignore XP gain in my tactical decisions - you will level eventually!

Plus, (gaming hat here), you actually are more powerful the more slowly you level, since your gold:level ratio is higher!


I agree with your first point (to a degree), worry about being efficient and effective, only choose for XP in the last few turns if you care about it.

Your second paragraph is either incomplete or incorrect though. If ALL players are levelling slowly then that could be true. But if you're levelling slower than your party you'll have the same gold as them and less XP, with a (potential) higher efficiency but the same absolute power increase from gold, less power from leveling AND you could fall behind the difficulty curve and become less effective relative to the monster level. Plus some classes are less reliant on gear, and may not necessarily gain gold at all
 
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