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Subject: Rules Discrepancy on Gaining Levels rss

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Tim Kelly
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What are the correct steps to level up? It seems to me the LTP and RRG disagree on this point. I know the Rules Reference is supposed to take precedence, but it seems wrong for gaining levels.

Imagine this situation…I have 2 “special” letters: S & L. My XP marker is on L when I kill a Level 3 enemy.

The way I think it should work, and the way I think the LTP describes it, is:
1) I move the XP marker back to the far left hole on the XP track, accounting for one of the three new XP.
2) I draw two letters, and pick one. Let’s say I pick P.
3) I then advance my XP marker the two remaining XPs for the Level 3 Enemy I just killed, and the marker ends up on P.

However, the RRG describes it this way on page 14:
“When a survivor gains multiple XP, he or she moves the peg for all gained XP, and then performs the steps for each level gained during that process.”

This makes it sound to me like the steps are:
1) Move the peg for all gained XPs. In the above example, I would move the peg three spaces, to the leftmost hole, then to S, and then to L again.
2) Perform steps for each level. I’ve gained one level, so I draw two letters, pick one, and add it to the board.

Seems like the RRG method ("skipping" a level step) just can't be right.

TK
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Andrej Kojic
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I would go with the first method It's sounds like the one that is most true to the fallout series. also this prevents you from leveling up so quickly.
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Robbie
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hey tkelly -- my understanding was that once you get past the 'L', you move the grey nib marker back to the far-left side (not counting as a spot) and start counting on 'S'. From what I gather, the far left space acts as a starting place to begin the next level.

You're on L, you get 3xp. Move the marker to the far-left (staging area) and begin the leveling again. I would say at this point you end on E.
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Craig S.
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I'm certain the LtP is correct. You perform the leveling process when the peg moves from your rightmost special token back to the leftmost (starting) hole, then continue gaining any remaining xp after that process is completed.

There is at least one other situation where I'm sure the LtP gets it right and the RR does not: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27598223#27598223
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Simon C
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_skeletontoucher wrote:
hey tkelly -- my understanding was that once you get past the 'L', you move the grey nib marker back to the far-left side (not counting as a spot) and start counting on 'S'. From what I gather, the far left space acts as a starting place to begin the next level.

You're on L, you get 3xp. Move the marker to the far-left (staging area) and begin the leveling again. I would say at this point you end on E.


You never put the peg into spots where you don't have the letter, so in the situation where you have S and L and gain an P you can't end up an E, since you don't have E. The question is whether you gain the letter from leveling up before or after moving the marker on any additional spots for as yet uncounted XP.

You also do count the starting spot (in so far as if you gain 1XP when you're on the last letter you've got filled, you will gain a level and stop your marker in the starting spot, not on S).
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Alex
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I just found out about this discrepancy myself and luckily there is already a topic on the matter

I would agree that the LtP has it right in this instance. Otherwise you can try to game the system by making sure the xp peg is at your last letter before you level up, and you try to fill in the S.P.E.C.I.A.L tokens from right to left. And if you don't game the system it is just a matter of luck whether you sometimes skip a letter or not.
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Andy McGarry
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Page 2, column 2, Foundational Rules (blue section) in RR: "This Rules Reference is the definitive source of rules. If something in this document contradicts information from the Learn to Play booklet, this guide takes precedence."

Page 14, column 2, XP: "When a survivor gains multiple XP, he or she moves the peg for all gained XP, and then performs the steps for each level gained during that process."

RR is king. When the peg moves past L it lands on the empty start space to initiate a level up. When multiple XP is earned, the peg still lands on the start space then travels to the first letter encountered and so on. The start space counts - this is the trigger for a level up. If the player gains enough XP to round the track twice, counting the start space both times, then 2 level ups are earned. Once the peg has moved all of its allotted spaces, THEN perform the level up procedures as many times as the peg hit the start space.

Example: Player has AL with peg on L

Player gains 3 XP:
Move the peg to Start, A, L. Peg ends on L, gain 1 Level

Player gains 4 XP:
Move peg to Start, A, L, Start. Peg ends on Start, gain 2 Levels

Player gains 5 XP:
Move peg to Start, A, L, Start, A. Peg ends on A, gain 2 Levels

"If the XP peg is in the hole beneath rightmost S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token the survivor has, and the survivor gains an XP, the peg is moved back to the leftmost hole. The survivor levels up!" The start space is the trigger for the level up procedure and must be counted when moving the peg no matter how many times it rounds the track. Level ups will not occur otherwise.
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Tim Kelly
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Thanks, Andy. I believe those of us in the "LTP is right" camp understand both the idea that the RR is supposed to supersede the LTP, and how the RR says Leveling is supposed to work. We just don't think the RR is correct in this case, no matter how carefully it's been worded. Since the RR has some omissions in some areas for this game, we think it's possible there's more than an "omission problem" here.

Sure wish FFG would answer this one! I've posted the same question on their site.

TK
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Sven DJ
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Everyone is of course free to choose the variant they feel plays best for their group.

That said, the Rules Reference is clear without room for misinterpretation:

"When a survivor gains multiple XP, he or she moves the peg for all gained XP, and then performs the steps for each level gained during that process."

So you can skip SPECIAL letters when gaining lots of xp. Maybe not intuitive, but RAW (Rules As Written).
 
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Decay
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svendj wrote:
Everyone is of course free to choose the variant they feel plays best for their group.
Why are you trying to render the LTP version insignificant? Both level up rule versions are very clear and right now both are at the same time correct and incorrect (the Schrödinger Cat rule of Fallout ) until FFG comes up with a FAQ. And they will.

The part with RR superseding the LTP I do not accept, as the RR has at least one other omission in the rules (enemy spawning).

So every group should decide which way they wanna play the game for themselves, one way or another. We play with the LTP ruling, as the RR way just seems so very gamey to us (although I have to admit the advantage one user described are the economics of moving the peg first and be done with it has something to it - last game I forgot at least once to move the peg further for the remaining XP after doing the level up shake).
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Tim Kelly
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Moppelkotze wrote:
(the Schrödinger Cat rule of Fallout )


Cat rule FTW! (Or, in this case FTLTP!)

 
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Andy McGarry
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Dare I dip my toe into the roiling waters of psychoanalysis? I do! Perhaps we are so accepting of the LtP rules because we want them to be the way the game plays. After all, it is a printed manual teaching us how to play, not just word of mouth or a demonstrator's explanation. But when multiple guides are provided and one of them states "This Rules Reference is the definitive source of rules" then we must capitulate.

Unless FFG releases an addendum or errata, these are the rules we play. Of course, house rules precede all followed very closely by group interpretation. No doubt we are all playing hundreds of games slightly differently. Play the rules that result in the most enjoyment!
 
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Selina Ryan
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yes it's a bit annoying that both booklets say different things and as other have said everyone plays the way they want to.

I'm a stickler for rules so I play the way the RR says, as precedence is king. I'll keep playing that way until FFG Amends things. Hopefully soon


 
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D Anderson
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There is a lot of correct and incorrect readings regarding both rulebooks so far.

1) of the gray token passes your last owned letter token, it triggers a level up.
2) the RRG specifically says to peg all exp BEFORE doing any level up steps. Which leads to...
3) the leftmost spot does not "use" an experience point. Your peg automatically moves there upon achieving a level up(see point one). Once you RESET the track by moving the token to the leftmost spot,you continue pegging exp as normal.
To add evidence to back this thought, look to the xp section on pg 14 of LTP book. It says "each time you earn xp you move your xp peg to the next SPECIAL token". There is no token under the left spot, so you can't spend xp to move there.

If you have S/L tokens and get 3xp, you lvl up/reset to start, then move to S-L-(lvl/reset again) and back to rest on S. You have levelled twice.
The reason behind this is that it's a level 3 enemy, and you (were) level 1. If you by some miracle killed a super mutant after walking out of the vault with no armor and weapons, you DESERVE two levels. odds are you would have just died horribly.
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Greg Pritchard
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Icedpyre wrote:
There is a lot of correct and incorrect readings regarding both rulebooks so far.

1) of the gray token passes your last owned letter token, it triggers a level up.
2) the RRG specifically says to peg all exp BEFORE doing any level up steps. Which leads to...
3) the leftmost spot does not "use" an experience point. Your peg automatically moves there upon achieving a level up(see point one). Once you RESET the track by moving the token to the leftmost spot,you continue pegging exp as normal.
To add evidence to back this thought, look to the xp section on pg 14 of LTP book. It says "each time you earn xp you move your xp peg to the next SPECIAL token". There is no token under the left spot, so you can't spend xp to move there.

Unfortunately you are misreading the rule here. There is more to the XP rule in the RRG that you refer to. “If the XP peg is in the hole beneath the rightmost S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token the survivor has, and the survivor gains an XP, the peg is moved back to the leftmost hole.”
So it takes 1 XP to move the XP peg back to the leftmost hole. Not the leftmost hole that has a SPECIAL token. That rule also defines the leftmost hole as the spot where the XP peg starts (i.e., the hole with no SPECIAL token above it.)
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D Anderson
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gpritch3 wrote:

Unfortunately you are misreading the rule here. There is more to the XP rule in the RRG that you refer to. “If the XP peg is in the hole beneath the rightmost S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token the survivor has, and the survivor gains an XP, the peg is moved back to the leftmost hole.”
So it takes 1 XP to move the XP peg back to the leftmost hole. Not the leftmost hole that has a SPECIAL token. That rule also defines the leftmost hole as the spot where the XP peg starts (i.e., the hole with no SPECIAL token above it.)



I just ran our debate by two people who hadn't played the game, and got a yes answer to both sides. One agreed with how you read it(more or less), one thought that because the rule said XP is tracked by the XP bar next to the SPECIAL tokens, that only those holes counted when tracking XP, and the furthest left spot was literally just somewhere to put it when setting up the game.

So I went back and checked the learn to play book. I will concede to your interpretation based mostly on the last sentence in XP section of the learning book. "You place the XP peg back into the far-left hold and start the process over if you still have some remaining XP to gain." So yes, you do reset as one XP.


EDIT: At the end of the day, it would have been useful if they gave a direct example of the level up procedure in the rulebook.
 
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Nick Hughes
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Well one things for sure we've been stuffing up our XP progression I'd completely missed that it moves based on SPECIAL letters owned and not simply you need 7XP to level up. Was wondering why we never saw any Perk cards
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Tim Kelly
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Finally got an answer over on the FFG forums. As expected, the RRG is the "correct" method. Here's the response user Fnoffen received:
- - -
Finally got a response from Andrew Fischer today!

"The method specified in the Rules Reference is correct. You gain all XP, then apply the effects of any level ups you earned from that XP. This method was used to avoid any memory issues that arose from applying a level-up in the middle of earning XP (and then having to remember how much XP was left to earn)."

- - -

Well...I may be old, but my memory's good enough to handle playing as described in the LTP.

Ya know...I often wish FFG would pay serious proofreaders to go over their rules, but...if they did...we all wouldn't have near as much fun on BBG discussing their games!
TK

Link to FFG site: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/264564-correc...
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