Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
136 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Why do you think there's not a lot of women game designers? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Camden C
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
Title.

Looking through the top 100 games, there are very few women name listed as designers/co-designers. You'd think with how big the market is getting, there'd be a closer split of women designers. Any thoughts on what might be keeping women out? Do you think it's even a problem?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In many fields women routinely do not receive the recognition they deserve. (Women's accomplishments are often credited to men etc.) So while I don't know specifically in the case of game design, I suspect that this more general systematic bias is also effecting board game design.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Cook
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
First, I'd argue that there are tons of women game designers. They just aren't designing the types of games that end up in the BGG database.

Second, watching the coverage from Essen, you do start to see more women designers and in other positions in the industry. Still overwhelmingly male dominated, but slowly changing.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Alaren wrote:
It's about the tech industry rather than boardgames, but you should definitely read this essay. The last thing board gaming needs is a gender panic like the one chewing through Silicon Valley.

it's a great essay on two men arguing about what they think women feel and experience.
23 
 Thumb up
0.30
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Alaren wrote:
Wrong. It's a great essay on how humans observably behave, which is significantly better evidence for broad social conclusions than any reference to how individuals feel or report personal experiences.

Partly, sure. Observable evidence is never bad. But it's not a be all, end all. Treating women like animals to be studied and solved isn't really helping. Women can communicate with us, we should probably ask them things. Any "answer" that does not include input from women is highly suspect.

Quote:
But thanks for the pointless ad hominem circumstantial, wouldn't be RSP without hollow, not-quite-actually-funny dismissals where genuine thought and careful, deliberate reflection ought to be.

Your condescending, never-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are pomposity is always welcome here. Gooble gobble.
25 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Oh and something else relevant from this theory.

"So this theory predicts that men will be more likely to choose jobs with objects, machines, systems, and danger; women will be more likely to choose jobs with people, talking, helping, children, and animals."

Boardgame design is objects and systems, sure. But boardgame design is also highly collaborative, the people and talking part (and sometimes helping). Seems like women should be equally represented under this theory.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris M
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would think it's partially because of who plays board games if you could find an overall demographic. Creating board games seems like a tiny market with a lot of risk potentially being involved which could also be another factor since generally women are smarter about saving their money.

Could link it to the question of why aren't there more women in board games and have valid reasons as to why the percentages aren't 50/50 there, being also related to why it's not 50/50 for designers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
damiangerous wrote:
Alaren wrote:
It's about the tech industry rather than boardgames, but you should definitely read this essay. The last thing board gaming needs is a gender panic like the one chewing through Silicon Valley.

it's a great essay on two men arguing about what they think women feel and experience.


Funny..

Seriously, groups are uncomfortable for outsiders. I know personally of female groups who harassed men and have read many stories of groups of men harassing women.

So random and historical imbalances can lead to runaway situations. If there is an underlying genuine reason then even more likely.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn Fox
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
Question everything
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The misogynistic male hegemony is keeping all of the women out and/or claiming credit for any of their game designs in an effort to keep the massively profitable game designing industry all to themselves.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
Redmond
WA
flag msg tools
Mandelbrot/Simurgh hybrid etc etc
badge
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My partner walked into a game store to buy something and waited at the counter for ten minutes while the clerk ignored her and talked to the usual guy who bathed in cat piss and bought magic cards.

She left, and never bought anything from them again.

The idea that things are the way they are solely because of natural inclinations is pure bullshit. The effect sizes of intellectual differences are freaking low, and as people said above, the "greater social skills" stuff should counterbalance that, right? (Those are also down in the "freaking low" silliness range.)
21 
 Thumb up
0.30
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martijn Broeren
Netherlands
Nijmegen
Gelderland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I honestly don't care who designed the game, I only care about the end result.

Is there any evidence that there are women who design fantastic games are being held back because of gender? Is there any evidence that people do not buy a game because it is designed by a woman?

I think it's just a thing that appeals more to men then women but I probably get in trouble by stating this, right?


6 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wendell
United States
Yellow Springs
Ohio
flag msg tools
Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
badge
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marthian80 wrote:
I honestly don't care who designed the game, I only care about the end result.

Is there any evidence that there are women who design fantastic games are being held back because of gender? Is there any evidence that people do not buy a game because it is designed by a woman?

I think it's just a thing that appeals more to men then women but I probably get in trouble by stating this, right?


Not in trouble but you may be blinkered in missing a step or two that precedes the one you cite: are women being discouraged from designing great games in the FIRST place? And if so, why? Perhaps because those interested in gaming have been dissuaded/discouraged from following the boardgaming hobby by shitty treatment from male gamers?

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
It boils down to why there are more men in the hobby (something that I think is rapidly changing btw).

In addition, designing games takes a bit of Dunning-Kruger, since you are very unlikely to have any success with your games, but (in most cases) need to believe you will, in order to put down all the time and effort. And Dunning-Kruger is more prevalent in men, be it society or inherited.

Another factor is the time and effort mentioned - even today, in every country, women do more chores at home. That leaves less time for staying up all night crunching spreadsheets or dabbling with graphical software.

Another interesting question is: is the average female designer more successful than the average male designer? If the above reasoning is correct, then we'd see a crushing majority of men not only in the top, but also among games #10,000 and below (eg. the Trump game). This can be investigated through the BGG database. Start crunching
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cultural inertia
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mutton Chops
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mondainai wrote:
In addition, designing games takes a bit of Dunning-Kruger, since you are very unlikely to have any success with your games, but (in most cases) need to believe you will, in order to put down all the time and effort.


As I understood it, the Dunning-Kruger effect deals with unfounded perceptions of competence versus actual ability, rather than self-belief, per se. By definition, those people whose game designs are good enough to be picked up by a publisher are not exemplars for the D-K effect.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
mutton_chops wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
In addition, designing games takes a bit of Dunning-Kruger, since you are very unlikely to have any success with your games, but (in most cases) need to believe you will, in order to put down all the time and effort.


As I understood it, the Dunning-Kruger effect deals with unfounded perceptions of competence versus actual ability, rather than self-belief, per se. By definition, those people whose game designs are good enough to be picked up by a publisher are not exemplars for the D-K effect.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1824/trump-game
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mutton_chops wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
In addition, designing games takes a bit of Dunning-Kruger, since you are very unlikely to have any success with your games, but (in most cases) need to believe you will, in order to put down all the time and effort.


As I understood it, the Dunning-Kruger effect deals with unfounded perceptions of competence versus actual ability, rather than self-belief, per se. By definition, those people whose game designs are good enough to be picked up by a publisher are not exemplars for the D-K effect.


For every published game, there are many unpublished games. For every unpublished game there are many games that didn't even get to a publisher.

I've designed a half dozen games, which my fiends played and in some cases enjoyed which never went to a publisher. My biggest effort had 100 pieces of unique artwork.

I think that is what he is talking about. If you had no unwarranted confidence you wouldn't even start.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MGK
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mutton_chops wrote:
As I understood it, the Dunning-Kruger effect deals with unfounded perceptions of competence versus actual ability, rather than self-belief, per se. By definition, those people whose game designs are good enough to be picked up by a publisher are not exemplars for the D-K effect.


have you ever played a game of Munchkin in your entire life
6 
 Thumb up
1.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mightygodking wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
As I understood it, the Dunning-Kruger effect deals with unfounded perceptions of competence versus actual ability, rather than self-belief, per se. By definition, those people whose game designs are good enough to be picked up by a publisher are not exemplars for the D-K effect.


have you ever played a game of Munchkin in your entire life

Not the person asked but no I've not and I don't intend to. I saw the box once, held it in my hand, and decided this was not a game I wanted in my collection.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
Redmond
WA
flag msg tools
Mandelbrot/Simurgh hybrid etc etc
badge
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mutton_chops wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
In addition, designing games takes a bit of Dunning-Kruger, since you are very unlikely to have any success with your games, but (in most cases) need to believe you will, in order to put down all the time and effort.


As I understood it, the Dunning-Kruger effect deals with unfounded perceptions of competence versus actual ability, rather than self-belief, per se. By definition, those people whose game designs are good enough to be picked up by a publisher are not exemplars for the D-K effect.


You're correct.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is another example of a gender difference that is freaking small, by the way, though it's a larger effect than in something like IQ.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martijn Broeren
Netherlands
Nijmegen
Gelderland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wifwendell wrote:
Marthian80 wrote:
I honestly don't care who designed the game, I only care about the end result.

Is there any evidence that there are women who design fantastic games are being held back because of gender? Is there any evidence that people do not buy a game because it is designed by a woman?

I think it's just a thing that appeals more to men then women but I probably get in trouble by stating this, right?


Not in trouble but you may be blinkered in missing a step or two that precedes the one you cite: are women being discouraged from designing great games in the FIRST place? And if so, why? Perhaps because those interested in gaming have been dissuaded/discouraged from following the boardgaming hobby by shitty treatment from male gamers?



I compare board game designing with engineering: in my experience it appeals more to men to pursue the engineering field. I mean how many female architects / mechanical engineers / software engineers / electrical engineers are there compared to male? I worked at four engineering companies and have met one single female engineer and about three hundred male engineers. Is this because they don't allow women to study engineering? No, it's just that the vast majority of women are not interested in studying engineering, but are more into medical, teaching, health-care, marketing, art, biology, etc. I'm not saying this is bad or good, just an observation.
Maybe my comparison to board game designing and engineering is wrong and maybe the Netherlands is not representative regarding female engineers but I think that this is one of the main reasons.

I have not experienced discouragement / shitty treatment to women from male gamers but also have not met any women interested in the board gaming hobby so I don't think I can say anything useful about that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
6 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marthian80 wrote:
I have not experienced discouragement / shitty treatment to women from male gamers

Really? Because I have seen that on BGG a number of times.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wendell
United States
Yellow Springs
Ohio
flag msg tools
Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
badge
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marthian80 wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Marthian80 wrote:
I honestly don't care who designed the game, I only care about the end result.

Is there any evidence that there are women who design fantastic games are being held back because of gender? Is there any evidence that people do not buy a game because it is designed by a woman?

I think it's just a thing that appeals more to men then women but I probably get in trouble by stating this, right?


Not in trouble but you may be blinkered in missing a step or two that precedes the one you cite: are women being discouraged from designing great games in the FIRST place? And if so, why? Perhaps because those interested in gaming have been dissuaded/discouraged from following the boardgaming hobby by shitty treatment from male gamers?



I compare board game designing with engineering: in my experience it appeals more to men to pursue the engineering field. I mean how many female architects / mechanical engineers / software engineers / electrical engineers are there compared to male? I worked at four engineering companies and have met one single female engineer and about three hundred male engineers. Is this because they don't allow women to study engineering? No, it's just that the vast majority of women are not interested in studying engineering, but are more into medical, teaching, health-care, marketing, art, biology, etc. I'm not saying this is bad or good, just an observation.
Maybe my comparison to board game designing and engineering is wrong and maybe the Netherlands is not representative regarding female engineers but I think that this is one of the main reasons.

I have not experienced discouragement / shitty treatment to women from male gamers but also have not met any women interested in the board gaming hobby so I don't think I can say anything useful about that.


Are you a woman? Then by definition you haven't EXPERIENCED it. I personally have never experienced rape, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I imagine you haven't followed (or have ignored) the various academic studies, first-person accounts, and many, many other pieces about how pervasive hostility towards women in academic and work environments have served to depress the proportion of women in fields like the ones you cited above. Funny how you don't see as many women in those circles after many of the interested women have been forced out of the field by persistent mistreatment at the hands (sometimes literally) of men.

The same sort of thing happens in gaming. I doubt there is a single woman involved in the gaming hobby who doesn't have a "me, too" story ranging from "merely" dismissive and patronizing attitudes towards them from men ("You're a pretty good gamer for a girl"), to outright sexual assault, and lots of stuff in between.

Again - part of the damage from this sort of behavior (sticking to gaming) is that fewer women ENTER the gaming hobby because of these shitty attitudes towards them from a proportion of the men in the hobby. Then fewer women STICK with the hobby. The fewer that stick with it, the fewer become immersed and experienced enough to want to DESIGN games. The fewer that start designing games, the fewer that become top-notch designers.

This is not that complicated.
12 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chengkai Yang
United States
Cupertino
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think this goes back to an equality of choice vs outcome question. I think it terrible to assume that even given equality of choice, that the outcome will be an equal distribution. We all have natural proclivities, there's also some that might be more due to upbringing & culture. I'm inclined to believe that there's elements that are more hard coded and others that are learned, but I'll be buggered if we can ever really prove which is which.

Regarding choice - I think that when you find that necessity drives choice, you'll see a more equal distribution than when you let people choose based on preference.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.