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Subject: Discard phase without Captain phase rss

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Raffaele Basso
Italy
Aversa (Caserta)
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when in a round one player chooses CRAFTSMAN card, but none chooses CAPTAIN card, it's correct to store ALL goods for all players? DISCARD phase happens at the end of Captain Phase, thus without this phase there isn't discard phase. Is it correct?
 
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Eric Brosius
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Needham Heights
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
Minervino (#31002),

Correct. You can store any number of goods for as long as there's no Captain phase.
 
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Raffaele Basso
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Aversa (Caserta)
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
Eric Brosius (#31008),

thank you. thus, warehouses aren't less useful, don't you believe?
 
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Jim Campbell
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
Minervino wrote:
Eric Brosius (#31008),

thank you. thus, warehouses aren't less useful, don't you believe?


Warehouses remain useful because captain and trader can occur repeatedly without much pause in between. A principal benefit of the warehouse is that it allows storage of more than one type of goods, which sets up very interesting possibilities for choosing the captain and/or trader after the previous captain but before the craftsman. In that situation the quantity of goods stored is not usually as important as their types.

icetrey
 
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John Stimson
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Menomonee Falls
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
jimc (#31186),

Not to contradict JIMC, as I know he is a very fine player, but I frankly can't rememeber the last time I purchased a warehouse. I dont find them that worthwhile at all. Granted I have dumped plenty of barrels into the ocean, but usually I have different plans for the money. IE. by the time I need a warehouse I usually have eye on a Factory or Harbour. If I'm positive I'm not jeapardizing a crucial building, I might buy it.
 
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Jim Campbell
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
stayman (#31254),

The small warehouse is, relative to its cost, one of the most powerful buildings in the game. It is also very useful with a wide variety of positions; the only kind of position that doesn't use it well is a very low volume position, such as one that only makes 1 indigo and 1 coffee (the sort of position that would really need a large market to score competitively).

Players who are not in the habit of owning a small warehouse tend to overlook its strength because they aren't presented with the unusual choices it allows. I repeat my assertion from several months ago: Until the final turn of the game, the small warehouse is almost as effective as the wharf in ensuring that barrels turn into points. In addition, it increases trade possibilities rather than reducing them and interacts more powerfully with the harbor. The cost of 3 rather than 9 is also worth mentioning.

I buy the small warehouse as soon as possible after establishing income if I cannot afford the harbor. There is considerable competition for the small warehouses in games on BSW, so it's common to show up one move or one turn too late to get one.

The large warehouse is an utter waste in nearly all cases; one can assume that it is useless and almost never suffer any bad consequences as a result, assuming less than 5 players.

Jim
 
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John Stimson
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
jimc (#31301),

I agree about the large warehouse, It is totally useless.

Don't get me wrong the small warehouse is popular in the games I play also. I just haven't seen it as being all that powerful.

I guess that is because I don't really see Shipping points to be all that critical. I would rather produce as many different types of goods as possible, and the clog the boats on captain pases, try for a quick factory and close the game by building out.

I guess I have to get over to BSW and get a lesson or two. I do have an account, just never joined a game since I have a hard time recognizing exactly what is going on.
 
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Robert Birks
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Trafalgar
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
Personally I dont build the small warehouse often, I haven't ever been convinced of its use when I am trying to save money for other buildings. My arguments differ from Stayman's though, as I am primarily a shipper. The quick build to finish strategy rarely works well on BSW, though I do end up using it on occasions. I just find that it's more important to get the harbor quickly (for example) rather than stop over and get a warehouse first. After I have a harbor, then the warehouses are often gone. Even if they aren't, I might be in a race for a guild hall, or if I am shipping a lot, I'll save for the wharf instead. I am more likely to use it is I have a large corn production early; if you use a corn strategy you can't afford to dump the goods.

Reading JimC's arguments now though, I think I will try building the warehouse more often to get a feel for its effectiveness. Certainly I dont often feel that when I lose, it was because the opponents use the warehouse well.

The great thing about PR is the variety in different approaches you can use, and one of the differences between the good and the best players is learning the subtle differences that tell you which variation of buildings is likely to help you win any particular game.


Stayman, you really should get on over to BSW, the interface is very simple, and after your first couple of games you'll find that you dont have any problems at all.
 
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John Stimson
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
Kanga (#31402),

I actually came over and watched a few games last night. the interface seemed odd, but it was easy enough the figure out.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Lynnwood
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Re:Discard phase without Captain phase
The small warehouse is generally a very powerful building. You dont want to buy it too early (before setting up income), because income is important, and that early you dont have the quantity of production to warrant it.

In the midgame, the warehouse becomes a powerful building, as you save your goods, and are able to ship them later. It even allows for times when you can craftsman again after another craft, before a captain phase (the 'double craft'), or alternately, after a captain phase clears the boats, and you have the only goods left, due to warehouse, you can captain agian and ship them all, gaining points and controlling the boats (the 'double captain'). You can even sometimes save multiples of a big trade good after a captain, when others save only one. Then the trader happens ,taking their goods, and clearing the trade house, but you still have a good left, so you can trader again ('double trade') Essentially, it allows you to save goods for a time period when others dont have them, so that you can make a powerful solo or near solo move, or alternately, to craft twice and give everyone too many goods, and keep the extras while your opponents discard them.


Of course, there are times when the warehouse is not necessary, and if you have enough to buy a factory or harbor, that is usually better. Factors that make warehouse weaker:

You have slow filling boats of 1 or more of your good types, with a lot of space left. (Example: you make a coffee boat, and are the only one with coffee.

The player in front of you is in a position to choose craftsman frequently, thus giving you good captain/shipping opportunities.

Factors that make warehouse stronger:

You have a lot of production in one good type (e.g. corn), especially if there is not currently a boat of that type, or if there is a lot of production of that type, so that it can fill even if the boat exists, before your turn in the shipping phase.

There are slow filling boats of good types you do not have (example: opponent makes a tobacco boat, you dont have tobacco). Thus, this boat will be occupied for a long time, and you have less boats to work with for your goods.


The warehouse serves to reduce your craftsman fear, that is, to make it less likely that choosing the craftsman will result in your opponents gaining more than you.

 
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