Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Combat Infantry» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Game is tough on the attacker rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Richard Boyes
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After four scenarios played f-t-f, I have yet to see the attacking side win.

With hexside fire and assault limits, and defender's first fire during assaults, the attacker usually is getting hit too hard to make much progress. There have been limited successes for the attacker in our plays, but never enough for a scenario win.

Most scenarios have a fairly limited number of game turns. This makes it difficult to lay back and soften up the defenders.

I'd like to hear how other players are doing.

Game on!

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have not gotten the game to the table yet, but this is what I expect.

It seems to me that there may be an error in the rules - hexside LOS being blocked if the defender is adjacent but the firer is not. It seems like it would make it too tough to attack. I look forward to getting a game or three in soon.
3 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Won first scenario as Americans on second try but only by one point.

What to say? Attacking defended positions is tough. The key is flanking into assaults with full strength units. Use one platoon to soften up the target and a fresh platoon to make the assault. Also, using battalion assets to maximum effect is a tactical puzzle in its own right. You’re right. It’s tough. But it’s doable.

Also, I don’t think the dice that came in my game can roll less than a 6... angry
3 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
martimer wrote:
I have not gotten the game to the table yet, but this is what I expect.

It seems to me that there may be an error in the rules - hexside LOS being blocked if the defender is adjacent but the firer is not. It seems like it would make it too tough to attack. I look forward to getting a game or three in soon.


Such a ruling is indeed uncommon in tactical wargames, as far as I know. Then again, it's always dangerous to make assumptions based on other games.

Like to hear from Columbia Games on this issue.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
boersma8 wrote:
martimer wrote:
I have not gotten the game to the table yet, but this is what I expect.

It seems to me that there may be an error in the rules - hexside LOS being blocked if the defender is adjacent but the firer is not. It seems like it would make it too tough to attack. I look forward to getting a game or three in soon.


Such a ruling is indeed uncommon in tactical wargames, as far as I know. Then again, it's always dangerous to make assumptions based on other games.

Like to hear from Columbia Games on this issue.


It’s reasonable based on LOS being blocked by actual depiction of terrain, not by a “terrain hex.” I can think of instances in Combat Commander, for example, where tracing a line into a woods hex would cross a hex that is mostly empty but still have some woods along the hexside into which a unit fires.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Malacandra wrote:
boersma8 wrote:
martimer wrote:
I have not gotten the game to the table yet, but this is what I expect.

It seems to me that there may be an error in the rules - hexside LOS being blocked if the defender is adjacent but the firer is not. It seems like it would make it too tough to attack. I look forward to getting a game or three in soon.


Such a ruling is indeed uncommon in tactical wargames, as far as I know. Then again, it's always dangerous to make assumptions based on other games.

Like to hear from Columbia Games on this issue.


It’s reasonable based on LOS being blocked by actual depiction of terrain, not by a “terrain hex.” I can think of instances in Combat Commander, for example, where tracing a line into a woods hex would cross a hex that is mostly empty but still have some woods along the hexside into which a unit fires.
Yes, that happens in a lot of tactical games.

It gets back to the question of reciprocal line of sight. In the real world there are many instances of units being hidden in the woods until they fire. How that is depicted varies only a little from a "standard" approach and only in a few games - Off the top of my head I can only recall Soldiers: Man-to-Man Combat in World War II. In most games it is handled by giving the "hidden" unit a penalty for firing in.

CI has the unit hidden behind the tree line as being immune to fire.

Then there is that pesky Important note that woods bedsides block all LOS.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kwasny
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
martimer wrote:

Then there is that pesky Important note that woods bedsides block all LOS.


I am unsure which Important NOTE you are referring to. Is it this one under 6.4 (Line of Sight)?

"IMPORTANT: ignore terrain within the firing and target hexes, but hexside terrain always blocks LOS."

If so, I would say that is just a reminder that hex sides do block LOS, even hex sides of the firing and target units' hexes. Hence, hex sides always block LOS. But other rules have made it clear that units can always see into adjacent hexes (except through Hedges).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mvkwasny wrote:
martimer wrote:

Then there is that pesky Important note that woods bedsides block all LOS.


I am unsure which Important NOTE you are referring to. Is it this one under 6.4 (Line of Sight)?

"IMPORTANT: ignore terrain within the firing and target hexes, but hexside terrain always blocks LOS."

If so, I would say that is just a reminder that hex sides do block LOS, even hex sides of the firing and target units' hexes. Hence, hex sides always block LOS. But other rules have made it clear that units can always see into adjacent hexes (except through Hedges).


I think the biggest violation of this rule is some of the hedges. Hedges are called hexside terrain but many of those depicted are not along the hex edge at all. When playing W3 last night, we simply interpreted them as being on the hex edge and needing to be breached. Otherwise it seemed inconsistent.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mvkwasny wrote:
martimer wrote:

Then there is that pesky Important note that woods bedsides block all LOS.


I am unsure which Important NOTE you are referring to. Is it this one under 6.4 (Line of Sight)?

"IMPORTANT: ignore terrain within the firing and target hexes, but hexside terrain always blocks LOS."

If so, I would say that is just a reminder that hex sides do block LOS, even hex sides of the firing and target units' hexes. Hence, hex sides always block LOS. But other rules have made it clear that units can always see into adjacent hexes (except through Hedges).
Yes, that is the note I was referring to and this one has caused me the most problems. It is IMPORTANT enough that hexside terrain was specifically called out to always block LOS, while elsewhere hexside terrain adjacent to units does not. I will have to play before I can decide for myself whether to house rule, but by the letter of the rules, hexside terrain ALWAYS blocks LOS and it is IMPORTANT to know that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
martimer wrote:
mvkwasny wrote:
martimer wrote:

Then there is that pesky Important note that woods bedsides block all LOS.


I am unsure which Important NOTE you are referring to. Is it this one under 6.4 (Line of Sight)?

"IMPORTANT: ignore terrain within the firing and target hexes, but hexside terrain always blocks LOS."

If so, I would say that is just a reminder that hex sides do block LOS, even hex sides of the firing and target units' hexes. Hence, hex sides always block LOS. But other rules have made it clear that units can always see into adjacent hexes (except through Hedges).
Yes, that is the note I was referring to and this one has caused me the most problems. It is IMPORTANT enough that hexside terrain was specifically called out to always block LOS, while elsewhere hexside terrain adjacent to units does not. I will have to play before I can decide for myself whether to house rule, but by the letter of the rules, hexside terrain ALWAYS blocks LOS and it is IMPORTANT to know that.


I think that is just a slightly different way of saying what is true in a lot of tactical games (again, my example, Combat Commander). That's because all the hexside terrain in CI is on both sides of the hex and the rules declare the actual depiction as what blocks LOS.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kwasny
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
martimer wrote:
mvkwasny wrote:
martimer wrote:

Then there is that pesky Important note that woods bedsides block all LOS.


I am unsure which Important NOTE you are referring to. Is it this one under 6.4 (Line of Sight)?

"IMPORTANT: ignore terrain within the firing and target hexes, but hexside terrain always blocks LOS."

If so, I would say that is just a reminder that hex sides do block LOS, even hex sides of the firing and target units' hexes. Hence, hex sides always block LOS. But other rules have made it clear that units can always see into adjacent hexes (except through Hedges).
Yes, that is the note I was referring to and this one has caused me the most problems. It is IMPORTANT enough that hexside terrain was specifically called out to always block LOS, while elsewhere hexside terrain adjacent to units does not. I will have to play before I can decide for myself whether to house rule, but by the letter of the rules, hexside terrain ALWAYS blocks LOS and it is IMPORTANT to know that.


Hex side terrain adjacent to units does block LOS to hexes farther away. Hex side terrain adjacent to a unit does not block LOS only into the adjacent hex. So a unit in a hex with a woods hex side can see and fire and spot into the adjacent hex, but could not see, fire, or spot into a hex two hexes away. So there does seem to be a consistency in one aspect - the hex side between two adjacent hexes does not block LOS (except for Hedges) but hex sides do block LOS for LOS to hexes two or more away.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
flag msg tools
"All history is made up. Good history is made up by good historians; bad history is made up by the others." -David Macaulay
badge
"The longer life is, the more it will be old age." Ursula K. Le Guin
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So far we've had the most fun with meeting engagements - it *is* tough on the attacker. We've done scenario five twice and made up our own meeting engagement for a third game. We tried German assault on Moran scenario and the Germans were slaughtered, though there were admittedly one-sided dice rolls in that game!

We need more maps so we can create more meeting engagements! Does anyone know of any other game that has maps that might work with this system? I suspect not: between the hex size and hexside requirements, I suspect we're on our own ...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vail Marston
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
Out of three scenarios I've played, the attacking side has won twice. Once was by a single victory point, though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Blom
Sweden
flag msg tools
Well this is not strange as the game always have evenly amount of men involved. In reality the attacker (especially the US) should have a 2-1 advantage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MrSnappycat wrote:
Well this is not strange as the game always have evenly amount of men involved. In reality the attacker (especially the US) should have a 2-1 advantage.


Given scale and mechanics, etc., 2:1 in favor of the attacker would not be balanced much at all, in my opinion. To adjust balance, most scenarios give the Defender some reduced units to start. Sure, you can rally them but then you’re giving up a turn.

In our games, we’ve seen close scores, which seems accounted for by a balance of casualties and Objective VPs.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Blom
Sweden
flag msg tools
Well ist strange to have a game that not can handle a 2-1 or 3-1 situation?
As this Where the case in Normandie all the time. The allied had a huge numerical advantage both in men and material.

A method to handle this within the system is to use shits as in solo gamingmod. One HQ 1 shit. Mayybe letning Germans to have morse shit for their bettet tactical skill?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MrSnappycat wrote:
Well ist strange to have a game that not can handle a 2-1 or 3-1 situation?
As this Where the case in Normandie all the time. The allied had a huge numerical advantage both in men and material.

A method to handle this within the system is to use shits as in solo gamingmod. One HQ 1 shit. Mayybe letning Germans to have morse shit for their bettet tactical skill?


There are some differences in the forces which reflect nationalities. German rifle squads have one less step but more F3 squads. Americans have more F2 squads but they are 4 steps.

There are just six included scenarios so far. I’m sure others will come up with new engagements that try out different and more historical orders of battle. For this game, however, which isn’t historically detailed, my preference is for a balanced and fun game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.