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Subject: Can a player get an award with none of that type? rss

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Sidney Blumenthal
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I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I searched and couldn't find the answer.

I had a game last night where I funded the Scientist award, but I was the only player with any Science tags. Do the rest of the players get 2 VP even though they have zero Science?
 
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Sonny A.
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Yes, the runner up gets 2 VP. If it is shared by more players, they each get 2 VP.

(Note that there's no 2nd place reward in a 2-player game)
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Örjan Almén
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JesterSB wrote:
I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I searched and couldn't find the answer.

I had a game last night where I funded the Scientist award, but I was the only player with any Science tags. Do the rest of the players get 2 VP even though they have zero Science?


I don't have a definite answer, but I would say they would get a tied second place.
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AJ Cooper
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Hah! Good one, I never thought of that occurring. Personally I would prefer the answer to be no reward for having zero. But the correct answer is not obvious to me.
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The Shader
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We don't need science to terraform mars!

Keep throwing asteroids at it and try not to hit the buildings
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Chris Hall
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I thought there was a rule about this which said you don't get second place if you have zero?

Edit: I can't anything about it, perhaps Jacob Fryxelius can confirm this for us?
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Jeff K
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Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)

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Sidney Blumenthal
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Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



I tried both google and BGG search and turned up nothing. My Googlefoo needs some work i guess.

So, officially zero still scores, but a house rule is fine if you like it better thematically. Thanks!
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Richard Young
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JesterSB wrote:
Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



I tried both google and BGG search and turned up nothing. My Googlefoo needs some work i guess.

So, officially zero still scores, but a house rule is fine if you like it better thematically. Thanks!
If that is an "official" ruling, it is so counter-intuitive that it is breathtaking. It is essentially saying "pay up to 20MC for 3VP. I suppose it is unlikely that the other players will all finish up with no science tags at all, but the fact that a situation such as that could occur either makes it a poor choice of subject for an award or a poor choice of ruling on the rules for awards.
We've never thought about it but naturally assumed that you weren't in the running for an award unless you had at least one of the items being contested. that is certainly how we will continue to treat it - house rules are designed for this...
 
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Jay B
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This came up in one of our 3 player games, with Excentric award, two players had no resources on cards.
 
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Bubslug wrote:
JesterSB wrote:
Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



I tried both google and BGG search and turned up nothing. My Googlefoo needs some work i guess.

So, officially zero still scores, but a house rule is fine if you like it better thematically. Thanks!
If that is an "official" ruling, it is so counter-intuitive that it is breathtaking. It is essentially saying "pay up to 20MC for 3VP. I suppose it is unlikely that the other players will all finish up with no science tags at all, but the fact that a situation such as that could occur either makes it a poor choice of subject for an award or a poor choice of ruling on the rules for awards.
We've never thought about it but naturally assumed that you weren't in the running for an award unless you had at least one of the items being contested. that is certainly how we will continue to treat it - house rules are designed for this...

Think about it this way:
Can you name one other card that would net you 5 points for 8-20 MC?
 
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Sonny A.
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newsaidin wrote:

Can you name one other card that would net you 5 points for 8-20 MC?
'

Lake Marinaris is close
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MAP
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I would say none of the other players get the 2nd place reward.

In all games I play a Nil input gets Nil output, unless the rules very very specifically state otherwise.

You can't tap what you don't have, and in this case you don't get a trophy for a race you didn't even enter. I use those rules of thumb for any game, not just T.M.

Also: there are other awards they could've funded and milestones they could've claimed.

The other solution would've been to play just one stinking science card for the 2 free VP (or 5 if that would've tied you in first place, in which case either player then races to knock the other player back 3 VP by playing just one more card).
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Just so you lnow there is an official answer and it is Yes, 0 is a value.
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ɹǝsɐɹɟ
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therealtheshader wrote:
Keep throwing asteroids at it and try not to hit the your buildings
FTFY. If you accidentally hit somebody else's buildings, well that's just a cost of terraforming isn't it? whistle
 
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Ken Monson
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newsaidin wrote:
Just so you lnow there is an official answer and it is Yes, 0 is a value.


source of your "Official Answer"???

As I read this thread the consensus is if you have zero then you do not qualify for award.
 
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Ken Monson
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Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



and this "official" thread seems also to say no you don't get free points.
 
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Matthew Greet
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I say the designers should change the rule to not allow points for nothing for thematic reasons. Corporations are in it for prestige and marketing but nothing is hard to spin as success. Imagine the following marketing.

"Invest in Thorgate for the future of mankind. Already the leader in power generation, Thorgate showed the way in terraforming Mars and achieved celebrated success. Thorgate lead the way by transforming scattered mining colonies into thriving metropolises. Thorgate was applauded as the first to establish a self-sustaining ecosystem from barren dust. Thorgate sponsored scientists won multiple Nobel prizes with no scientific breakthroughs."
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Oerjan Ariander
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plem45 wrote:
Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



and this "official" thread seems also to say no you don't get free points.

No, it explicitly says that you do get free points if there's a tie at zero, but (in a later post) that there's a strong case for house-ruling the opposite.

Here is the post that says that 0 is a valid value for winning awards:
EagleEye80 wrote:
Trump wrote:
When you are calculating who gets VP from awards, is 0 still an eligible value? We had an award where only player had a value at all, so we were thinking that he got 5 VP and everyone else (with 0) got 2 VP.


We don't have any special rules in this case. If all players on second place happens to have 0 in that category, then they all get some very cheap 2 VPs!

Of course, this would not happen with experienced players. If I could secure a second place on an award by just getting 1 science tag out, or 1 steel, or somehow raise MC production just 1 step, I would do it without blinking. 2 VPs is a lot!

In the extreme case that no player has anything at all counting for the award, then all would get 5 VPs for sharing first place!
But who would pay to fund an award in the first place, if he didn't have anything in that category himself?

Edit: Mixed up some of the awards and milestones, but the principle is the same.

(emphasis added)

EagleEye80 is Enoch Fryxelius, CEO of FryxGames. The only source for rules questions about Terraforming Mars that is even more official than Enoch would be his brother Jacob, who designed the game

Regards,
Oerjan
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newsaidin wrote:
Just so you lnow there is an official answer and it is Yes, 0 is a value.


I was starting to doubt myself!
I was looking at this thread with no recollection of writing that 4 months ago... shake
 
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Richard Young
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newsaidin wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
JesterSB wrote:
Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



I tried both google and BGG search and turned up nothing. My Googlefoo needs some work i guess.

So, officially zero still scores, but a house rule is fine if you like it better thematically. Thanks!
If that is an "official" ruling, it is so counter-intuitive that it is breathtaking. It is essentially saying "pay up to 20MC for 3VP. I suppose it is unlikely that the other players will all finish up with no science tags at all, but the fact that a situation such as that could occur either makes it a poor choice of subject for an award or a poor choice of ruling on the rules for awards.
We've never thought about it but naturally assumed that you weren't in the running for an award unless you had at least one of the items being contested. that is certainly how we will continue to treat it - house rules are designed for this...

Think about it this way:
Can you name one other card that would net you 5 points for 8-20 MC?
Not the point at all. How many competitions for which awards are given out feature prizes for everyone whether they entered the competition or not?? Funding an Award is initiating a competition - you need to participate to win anything. If the other players let one person get five VP for as little as 8 MC, they deserve to lose. Part of the tactics in TM is starting a competition which you hope to dominate and, at the same time, that might force other players to depart from their optimum line of play. No player should be happy to see anyone get something for nothing. If getting even one of something would separate you from the "do nothing" player, it would be worth doing. This is not a multi-player solitaire game...
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Örjan Almén
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Bubslug wrote:
Not the point at all. How many competitions for which awards are given out feature prizes for everyone whether they entered the competition or not?? Funding an Award is initiating a competition - you need to participate to win anything. If the other players let one person get five VP for as little as 8 MC, they deserve to lose. Part of the tactics in TM is starting a competition which you hope to dominate and, at the same time, that might force other players to depart from their optimum line of play. No player should be happy to see anyone get something for nothing. If getting even one of something would separate you from the "do nothing" player, it would be worth doing. This is not a multi-player solitaire game...


Of course all players are in the competition of all funded awards. It's all in the thematics, All participating corprations signed up for this terraforming race in the first place, knowing that awards might be there to gain from, choosing to fund or not to fund awards was part of the concept.
 
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Bubslug wrote:
newsaidin wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
JesterSB wrote:
Xookliba wrote:
Here is the thread which answers your question (officially, no less). Google is your friend, it's much better than BGG search (and you did search, right?!)



I tried both google and BGG search and turned up nothing. My Googlefoo needs some work i guess.

So, officially zero still scores, but a house rule is fine if you like it better thematically. Thanks!
If that is an "official" ruling, it is so counter-intuitive that it is breathtaking. It is essentially saying "pay up to 20MC for 3VP. I suppose it is unlikely that the other players will all finish up with no science tags at all, but the fact that a situation such as that could occur either makes it a poor choice of subject for an award or a poor choice of ruling on the rules for awards.
We've never thought about it but naturally assumed that you weren't in the running for an award unless you had at least one of the items being contested. that is certainly how we will continue to treat it - house rules are designed for this...

Think about it this way:
Can you name one other card that would net you 5 points for 8-20 MC?
Not the point at all. How many competitions for which awards are given out feature prizes for everyone whether they entered the competition or not?? Funding an Award is initiating a competition - you need to participate to win anything. If the other players let one person get five VP for as little as 8 MC, they deserve to lose. Part of the tactics in TM is starting a competition which you hope to dominate and, at the same time, that might force other players to depart from their optimum line of play. No player should be happy to see anyone get something for nothing. If getting even one of something would separate you from the "do nothing" player, it would be worth doing. This is not a multi-player solitaire game...


But doing one of something would indeed push you 2 points over all other players but 1, by pushing them back.
 
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orjanalmen wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
Not the point at all. How many competitions for which awards are given out feature prizes for everyone whether they entered the competition or not?? Funding an Award is initiating a competition - you need to participate to win anything. If the other players let one person get five VP for as little as 8 MC, they deserve to lose. Part of the tactics in TM is starting a competition which you hope to dominate and, at the same time, that might force other players to depart from their optimum line of play. No player should be happy to see anyone get something for nothing. If getting even one of something would separate you from the "do nothing" player, it would be worth doing. This is not a multi-player solitaire game...


Of course all players are in the competition of all funded awards. It's all in the thematics, All participating corprations signed up for this terraforming race in the first place, knowing that awards might be there to gain from, choosing to fund or not to fund awards was part of the concept.
That logic only holds if you insist that doing nothing toward getting an award still entitles you to possibly get part of that award. I don't think that makes sense. Within the Terraforming Race, sub-competitions arose in order to spur on specific projects that would benefit some corporations over others while enhancing the achievement of the larger goal. A company, to qualify, had to actively do something toward the specific target in order to spur competition and ensure the target project got increased attention. Simply another take on relating theme to the rules - which is why I usually argue against the need to come up with thematic justifications for rules interpretations. If the devs say the rules are a certain way then there is no need for a thematic excuse.

In any event, if an award is funded then the players have to calculate what the chance is that doing nothing toward it will still get you something. If you opt to take that chance, the other players should ensure you don't...

 
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Örjan Almén
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Bubslug wrote:
orjanalmen wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
Not the point at all. How many competitions for which awards are given out feature prizes for everyone whether they entered the competition or not?? Funding an Award is initiating a competition - you need to participate to win anything. If the other players let one person get five VP for as little as 8 MC, they deserve to lose. Part of the tactics in TM is starting a competition which you hope to dominate and, at the same time, that might force other players to depart from their optimum line of play. No player should be happy to see anyone get something for nothing. If getting even one of something would separate you from the "do nothing" player, it would be worth doing. This is not a multi-player solitaire game...


Of course all players are in the competition of all funded awards. It's all in the thematics, All participating corprations signed up for this terraforming race in the first place, knowing that awards might be there to gain from, choosing to fund or not to fund awards was part of the concept.
That logic only holds if you insist that doing nothing toward getting an award still entitles you to possibly get part of that award. I don't think that makes sense. Within the Terraforming Race, sub-competitions arose in order to spur on specific projects that would benefit some corporations over others while enhancing the achievement of the larger goal. A company, to qualify, had to actively do something toward the specific target in order to spur competition and ensure the target project got increased attention. Simply another take on relating theme to the rules - which is why I usually argue against the need to come up with thematic justifications for rules interpretations. If the devs say the rules are a certain way then there is no need for a thematic excuse.

In any event, if an award is funded then the players have to calculate what the chance is that doing nothing toward it will still get you something. If you opt to take that chance, the other players should ensure you don't...


Yes, you are clearly in opposition of the designer's decision on how awards work. The "story" you tell here is made up by you and fine, houserule that if you like. I'll stick to the designers game.
 
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