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Subject: Sex and (Identity) Politics rss

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Alaren
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I'm not really sure what to say about this one. The facts are these: a porn star, whose birth name (Mercedes Grabowski) looks like a better porn name than her porn name (August Ames), said she didn't want to do scenes with men who also act in gay scenes. She was hounded about her "homophobia" on Twitter. And then she killed herself.

Writeups from the left and the right.
 
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Jasper
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This is a curse of modern communications, especially social media. Make it so much easier to completely vilify a person based on 1 unpleasant opinion or remark. Even worse if it leads to suicide, which has certainly happened before. Nuance and perspective are lost in an instant.

Mind you this seems to be one of those bipartisan (that's polypartisan for Europeans) issues.

Disclaimer, have not read any of your links. Felt free to comment anyway. Sue me.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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Bullying people is always disgusting behavior. To do it to the point the victim commits suicide is beyond anything I care to imagine. The rest of the story is details.
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Andre
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More evidence that the porn industry, is not all it's cracked up to be.

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Mutton Chops
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Alaren wrote:
I'm not really sure what to say about this one. The facts are these: a porn star, whose birth name (Mercedes Grabowski) looks like a better porn name than her porn name (August Ames), said she didn't want to do scenes with men who also act in gay scenes. She was hounded about her "homophobia" on Twitter. And then she killed herself.

Writeups from the left and the right.


Any suicide is a tragedy. What else is there to say? As far as social media goes, it's trivially obvious that those who enjoy directing extreme invective at others are unpleasant people. And...?
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Dickie Crickets
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I don't know her story, but going from 'perfectly healthy person' to 'fatally suicidal' over nasty Tweets seems a shade unlikely. I strongly suspect she had other issues and this was just one more straw too many.(This isn't to excuse the people who attacked her, of course.)

It's awful for someone to take their life, especially at so young an age. Trying to turn her death into kindling for the latest anti-"SJW" narrative is in poor taste. I suppose most of us could use a reminder than the people we mock on TEH INTERNETZ are flesh and blood at the other end, regardless of how we feel about something they've said.
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Guido Van Horn
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eaglebeak wrote:
I don't know her story, but going from 'perfectly healthy person' to 'fatally suicidal' over nasty Tweets seems a shade unlikely. I strongly suspect she had other issues and this was just one more straw too many.(This isn't to excuse the people who attacked her, of course.)

It's awful for someone to take their life, especially at so young an age. Trying to turn her death into kindling for the latest anti-"SJW" narrative is in poor taste. I suppose most of us could use a reminder than the people we mock on TEH INTERNETZ are flesh and blood at the other end, regardless of how we feel about something they've said.


Both articles clearly state she has dealt with depression for a long time.
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For some reason, some people's ideas about identity politics trumps their anti-rape ideas. That is, this woman should be forced to have sex with whoever they want, as opposed to letting her choose her own partners based on whatever she wants.
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Dickie Crickets
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GuidoVanHorn wrote:

Both articles clearly state she has dealt with depression for a long time.


Right, but what will be the media narrative here? "Troubled young adult film actress succumbs to depression; when will America do more for the mentally ill?" Or: "Adult actress kills herself after assholes give her shit on Twitter?"
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Lee Fisher
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Jythier wrote:
For some reason, some people's ideas about identity politics trumps their anti-rape ideas. That is, this woman should be forced to have sex with whoever they want, as opposed to letting her choose her own partners based on whatever she wants.


I don't see how you got "forced" to have sex out of any of that.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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lfisher wrote:
Jythier wrote:
For some reason, some people's ideas about identity politics trumps their anti-rape ideas. That is, this woman should be forced to have sex with whoever they want, as opposed to letting her choose her own partners based on whatever she wants.


I don't see how you got "forced" to have sex out of any of that.

If she was being pressured to have sex with male actors who also did gay scenes, isn't that an effort to force her into sex with someone she does not want?

The pron industry is morally complicated for many reasons.
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fightcitymayor
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Alaren wrote:
Writeups from the left and the right.
It's... interesting how you've chosen to frame this.

Your "left" link is to a gay social networking app site, and covers the story basically as a strict news event. Meaning quotes from the county medical examiner, quotes from friends, a timeline of events, and basically simply relaying the facts of the case. Somehow you describe this factual re-telling of events as "left."

Your "right" link is to a rightwing blogger who describes his website as "an alternative media website that is antithetical towards extreme leftist ideologies, Social Justice Warrior insanity, and rabid third-wave feminism." With breathless hyperbole & quotes like:

Quote:
If you’ve ever needed undeniable proof that Social Justice Warriors possess the most insidious, toxic, and downright cancerous ideology that has ever disgraced humanity, one needs to look no further than the recent suicide of porn star August Ames.
Quote:
SJWs demand endless empathy and understanding from society at large while giving nothing back in return. This nefarious philosophy is notorious for bullying, shaming, de-platforming, and outright destroying the livelihoods of anyone who crosses them, no matter how minor their perceived “crimes.” These toxic and horrific people are quickly transforming western society into one that is run by MeanGirls, and they have absolutely no remorse for the people they hurt along the way:
Quote:
The LGBT Community is not to blame for this — it’s the toxic and sociopathic SJWs who have infested society like malignant cockroaches.
Quote:
August Ames was killed by ruthless parasites who revel in their hypocrisy. It’s time to stop bending over backwards in order to accommodate their hurt feelings. Fuck them.

It's pretty obvious to anyone not entering this story with an axe to grind that these two writeups are not similar, not meant to be compared, and nowhere near even attempting to convey the same intent. One is a news story, one is an angry editorial excoriating the supposed "SJW" demons of Western civilization.
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Dickie Crickets
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fightcitymayor wrote:


Your "left" link is to a gay social networking app site...


The plot thickens!
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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I don't have anything to say about the OP, but having opened this thread I am now getting all-gay cruise ads. If anyone is interested and not getting the ads, the company is called Atlantis. From the ads I'd say that washboard abs are definitely a requirement.
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Andrew Bartosh

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Assholism is, unfortunately, not a left or right trait.

Like, there WAS a time when the whole skeleton term was actually reserved for the sort of people who did the harassment shit and such.

It is unacceptable, full stop.

There really isn't much to be said beyond that.
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Christopher Dearlove
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Somehow you describe this factual re-telling of events as "left."


A factual account of events is left in today's America.
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Khalid Shabazz
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Jythier wrote:
For some reason, some people's ideas about identity politics trumps their anti-rape ideas. That is, this woman should be forced to have sex with whoever they want, as opposed to letting her choose her own partners based on whatever she wants.

Rape isn't exactly the issue here.

Many women in the porn industry choose not to work with men who shoot gay porn movies, because they perceive doing so as a health risk. Whether that belief is justified or not, I have no idea. Fact is that out of all the ways that HIV is transmitted sexually, receptive anal intercourse poses the biggest risk by far. The straight porn industry almost universally doesn't use condoms (because it sells less apparently).

What is also clear is that several obnoxious people on Twitter chose to attack her over that (business) decision. As in any entertainment industry, the money she makes is directly linked to how popular she is. So by attacking her reputation, these people also attacked her economic worth and obviously her self-worth, too.
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Chad Ellis
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TheChin! wrote:
I don't have anything to say about the OP, but having opened this thread I am now getting all-gay cruise ads. If anyone is interested and not getting the ads, the company is called Atlantis. From the ads I'd say that washboard abs are definitely a requirement.


I've got washboard abs. Granted, they're currently covered by a sweatshirt made of fat, but what's the point of a washboard if you can't clean your clothes with it?
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Chad Ellis
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Back to the OP.

A subset of GLBTQ people are primed to see homo/trans/queerphobia behind almost any decision, and are ready to call it out aggressively whenever it "exists". See, for example, the trans women who argue that anyone who isn't open to a trans woman as a sexual partner is transphobic rather than merely having a preference.

I really don't know what the objective risk is of contracting HIV or other STI's from a male porn star who does MM porn vs. one who only does MF porn, but it seems pretty obvious to me that someone could believe that the risk was higher even if it happens not to be without that being due to anything that should be considered homophobia.

And, even if her decision was based on homophobia, it's really too bad that people can't hold wrong or even hurtful beliefs without being hounded. Criticized, sure...but I'd much rather we treated each other like BJ treats me about my beliefs around abortion.
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Elias Någonsson
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This is a complex issue, and I don't think it can be reduced to them being just assholed. I definitely think that current online "leftist" culture (especially among younger people) have a toxic streak of individualism. This is then combined with the idea of embracing anger, which on its own is a useful counterstrategy to internalizing oppression, but is sometimes treated as a goal rather than a means. Lastly, there's a lot of hostility to sex workers among certain shades of the left (eg. Swerfs).

Sorry if I'm rambling, I don't have a good terminology for all this. I think it's essentially a perfect storm of bad things. Contemporary individualism, the revolt against respectability politics, swerfiness, "personal brands" and so on.

As to what to prevent it in the future, the main issue is the individualism. Less focus on who's who in leftwing online circles, actively work against the trend of focusing on individual homophobes/misogynists/capitalists as the enemy and focusing more on the systems.

In regards to the anger, we should work to accept our anger as a natural response to our situations and a useful emotion to draw strenth from, but not a goal itself. We should also accept that it like other emotions can become dysfunctional if it becomes the dominant emotion.

And on swerfiness, we should just stop. Sex workers, including porn actresses, are workers, and often disenfranchised in other ways too. That also goes for those who are distasteful. Im not saying we should like a homophobe just because they are a sex worker, but I doubt the events would have unfolded the same way if it was some other business.


A few sidenotes:

1. Stating that you wont have sex with people because they are gay/ bisexual is homophobic. That doesn't mean you are forced to have sex with them.

2. Her statement wasnt exactly as 1, from what i gather, ut close enough that its not unreasonable to interpret it as homophobic. Of course, that doesn't excuse dogpiling or harassment.

3. While I think there's some connection to identity politics in this, it's not a central component at all.
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Elias Någonsson
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
See, for example, the trans women who argue that anyone who isn't open to a trans woman as a sexual partner is transphobic rather than merely having a preference.


If someone states that they arent open to relationships with trans women because they are trans, that is transphobia, not a preference, because trans women have nothing specific in common that separates them from other women.

If exluding some or all trans women is incidental, it's a different situation. If you're not into dicks, that's a preference that will exclude some trans women. If you're only interested in intimacy for the purpose of creating offspring, that will exclude trans women (if you're a cis guy) but also a lot of other women.

But if it's simply "trans women are icky", which it often boils down to, that's transphobia, not preference.
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whac3 wrote:
Bullying people is always disgusting behavior. To do it to the point the victim commits suicide is beyond anything I care to imagine. The rest of the story is details.


Sure. Yet many cultures rely on ostracism to impose social norms regardless of whether those norms are objectively positive or beneficial. What is the solution? Do we engage in a pact to avoid recognizing or valuing norms or do we agree to avoid actions which would be deemed as ostracism to avoid the emotional response of someone who violates those norms?

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Rulesjd wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Bullying people is always disgusting behavior. To do it to the point the victim commits suicide is beyond anything I care to imagine. The rest of the story is details.


Sure. Yet many cultures rely on ostracism to impose social norms regardless of whether those norms are objectively positive or beneficial. What is the solution? Do we engage in a pact to avoid recognizing or valuing norms or do we agree to avoid actions which would be deemed as ostracism to avoid the emotional response of someone who violates those norms?



I... don't think thats a relevant dichotomy. Its entirely possible to value and encourage certain norms without dogpile-bullying others. I also think whac's statement is meant with a quite limited definition of bullying, so that not all actions against someone is considered as such.

I think theres cases where actions that could be considered bulmying are justified. Excluding someone from the social environment of a workplace is for example often considered bullying, but if someone went around work bragging about beating up gay people I think it's completely justified to exclude them from the lunchbreak socialization.

Its not a black and white situation, but the current online leftwing environment in some places have gotten a bit shitty about thst stuff. Its not unique to the leftwing of course, but cryptofascists and others are shitty enough that there not much to say about it.
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Xander Fulton
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sajberhippien wrote:
1. Stating that you wont have sex with people because they are gay/ bisexual is homophobic.


Proof fails at step 1. It's really not. Having a preference for one thing does not automatically mean you have 'an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to' its opposite.

"X is not for me" != "I'm extremely terrified of X"
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sajberhippien wrote:
Lastly, there's a lot of hostility to sex workers among certain shades of the left (eg. Swerfs).

Someone please tell me whether I want to know what Swerfs are. My first impulse is no.
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