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Subject: Is this a legal way to give a clue? rss

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My wife's mind works in mysterious ways, and so she asked me if this is a legal way to give a clue or not, I'll give an example first:

For example, you give a clue GREEN TWO to indicate that the agents are GRASS and COW. So GRASS is obvious (it's green), so the guesser will pick it first and discover the agent. But then the way she wants the guesser to guess COW is she links it with GRASS, the first correct guess. So it's like the first guess becomes a clue for the second word! GREEN and COW don't really have anything to do with each other otherwise, but in her wonderful mind, you can link them through GRASS by giving a clue GREEN.

Now whether or not anyone would actually think of picking COW on clue GREEN is a different question, but does it violate the rules or the spirit of the game to give a clue in such a way?
 
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The clue you give must relate to all the words. So I would say: no, it is not correct.
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r56ygf wrote:
The clue you give must relate to all the words. So I would say: no, it is not correct.

Is that actually in the rulebook, or is it more of a "spirit of the game"?
 
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Th334 wrote:
r56ygf wrote:
The clue you give must relate to all the words. So I would say: no, it is not correct.

Is that actually in the rulebook, or is it more of a "spirit of the game"?


I dont think its in the Duet rulebook specifically, but I know the original Codenames rulebook had something like it and the stupid rule against homophones (with a variant to allow homophones.) I guess they figured by taking out genuine wordplay dumb people would feel less intimidated?

The hysterical thing is that the only way Green --> Cow becomes illegal under that concept is if the guesser says their train of thought out loud. If they just keep it internal, there's no way to know if its a lucky guess or a popculture reference you didnt get. And you can just say "Cows are always surrounded by green but boat and plane are surrounded by blue and dark and light can be anything" etc etc. The rule would be pretty much unenforceable.

In my world, there are only three almost enforceable "spirit of the game" rules about clues.

1. Don't use board placement: can't say Corners for the words in the 4 corners or middle for the middle row.

2. Don't use starting letter or rhymes: Can't say "S" for swan, seismic and serenade, can't say white for kite, bite, night and blight.

3. Don't use the number part of your clue as a clue: can't say vehicles 8 for car, bus and octopus.

And if either the giver or guesser were any good, they could justify all those clues too.



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As I read the rules I think that's legal and well within the spirit of the game. Imagine if GRASS were not on the board, you could still give the clue GREEN, and it links to COW because grass is green and cows eat grass. There's no rule saying the clue can't be tenuous.

The clue restriction is that clues should be about the word itself, not about the shape of the word / rhyme / number of letters. GREEN to COW is fully about the meaning and not about the shape of the word.
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David Jones
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As an opposing player, I would probably allow this. My experiences has been that when you try to "chain" connections together like this, it typically doesn't work. When you give a clue, the receiver has no way of knowing if you are giving a clue with two direct connections or a clue with a chained connection. The other person is more likely to assume the former of the two and guess wrong. So if you're going to offer a clue that could given accidental guess to me, you go right ahead and do that. Its difficult to create conventions with this game like the one you describe because you cannot tell your partner which convention you are using when giving the clue.
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Brian Baier
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Th334 wrote:
My wife's mind works in mysterious ways, and so she asked me if this is a legal way to give a clue or not, I'll give an example first:

For example, you give a clue GREEN TWO to indicate that the agents are GRASS and COW. So GRASS is obvious (it's green), so the guesser will pick it first and discover the agent. But then the way she wants the guesser to guess COW is she links it with GRASS, the first correct guess. So it's like the first guess becomes a clue for the second word! GREEN and COW don't really have anything to do with each other otherwise, but in her wonderful mind, you can link them through GRASS by giving a clue GREEN.

Now whether or not anyone would actually think of picking COW on clue GREEN is a different question, but does it violate the rules or the spirit of the game to give a clue in such a way?

...

She could have just said "pasture" 2. Just sayin'.
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James
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chardir wrote:
As I read the rules I think that's legal and well within the spirit of the game. Imagine if GRASS were not on the board, you could still give the clue GREEN, and it links to COW because grass is green and cows eat grass. There's no rule saying the clue can't be tenuous.

The clue restriction is that clues should be about the word itself, not about the shape of the word / rhyme / number of letters. GREEN to COW is fully about the meaning and not about the shape of the word.


I agree, and while it can be confusing, some clue givers like to play this way to chain connections via obvious guesses to more tenuous guesses. It helps the team to know whether their clue giver sometimes engages in that play style.

PS an easy way to directly link GRASS and COW is to say PASTURE 2.
 
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Amanda Zimmer
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This reminds me of a clue I had received once: LAUNCH THREE.

I was drawing a blank as to even one word that remotely related to it. I ended up guessing HOLLYWOOD [launch movies, anyone??], which was of course the assassin. Everyone--including the other team--knew what the three words were: PRESS, BUTTON, MISSILE.

They definitely weren't privy to some kind of secret convention that I wasn't. It probably made sense to them from their background; they were also all engineers--I suppose engineers often think about pressing buttons to launch missiles or something. =P
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Brian Baier
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jameskk wrote:
PS an easy way to directly link GRASS and COW is to say PASTURE 2.
Posted Today 9:31 am

That's an excellent suggestion! Incidentally, you might want to peruse the thread ahead of your next comment...

elucidarian wrote:
She could have just said "pasture" 2. Just sayin'.
Posted Today 9:14 am



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chardir wrote:
The clue restriction is that clues should be about the word itself, not about the shape of the word / rhyme / number of letters. GREEN to COW is fully about the meaning and not about the shape of the word.


Agreed. We allow pretty much any clue that doesn't relate to the syntax/shape of the word. If "Green Cow" means something to you, great, that's a clever clue.
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chardir wrote:
As I read the rules I think that's legal and well within the spirit of the game. Imagine if GRASS were not on the board, you could still give the clue GREEN, and it links to COW because grass is green and cows eat grass. There's no rule saying the clue can't be tenuous.

The clue restriction is that clues should be about the word itself, not about the shape of the word / rhyme / number of letters. GREEN to COW is fully about the meaning and not about the shape of the word.


davypi wrote:
As an opposing player, I would probably allow this. My experiences has been that when you try to "chain" connections together like this, it typically doesn't work. When you give a clue, the receiver has no way of knowing if you are giving a clue with two direct connections or a clue with a chained connection. The other person is more likely to assume the former of the two and guess wrong. So if you're going to offer a clue that could given accidental guess to me, you go right ahead and do that. Its difficult to create conventions with this game like the one you describe because you cannot tell your partner which convention you are using when giving the clue.


I fully agree with both of these comments. The clue described is perfectly legal, just probably not very good. (Unless the OP and wife have an inside joke about green cows, course. You never know...)
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elucidarian wrote:
jameskk wrote:
PS an easy way to directly link GRASS and COW is to say PASTURE 2.
Posted Today 9:31 am

That's an excellent suggestion! Incidentally, you might want to peruse the thread ahead of your next comment...

elucidarian wrote:
She could have just said "pasture" 2. Just sayin'.
Posted Today 9:14 am

Guys, hold your horses, the GRASS, PASTURE, GREEN example is made up to demonstrate a chain clue. Sorry I didn't make it clear. In real game it was all much worse, she was thinking to link SISTER and FLAT by saying NUN... (because nuns "flat" together)

iamzimmer wrote:
This reminds me of a clue I had received once: LAUNCH THREE.

Amanda, hilarious story! I might borrow it to replace my GRASS, PASTURE, GREEN the next time I try to explain a chain clue to somebody. PS: and I'm terribly sorry, but I have to admit that LAUNCH MOVIE is not something I would think of personally. I would likely touch MISSILE first (boys! shake), and then I may or may not have figured out the other two.
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Max DuBoff
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Th334 wrote:
elucidarian wrote:
jameskk wrote:
PS an easy way to directly link GRASS and COW is to say PASTURE 2.
Posted Today 9:31 am

That's an excellent suggestion! Incidentally, you might want to peruse the thread ahead of your next comment...

elucidarian wrote:
She could have just said "pasture" 2. Just sayin'.
Posted Today 9:14 am

Guys, hold your horses, the GRASS, PASTURE, GREEN example is made up to demonstrate a chain clue. Sorry I didn't make it clear. In real game it was all much worse, she was thinking to link SISTER and FLAT by saying NUN... (because nuns "flat" together)

If anything, this seems more clearly legal than the example you gave because SISTER doesn't add much to the implications of NUN that'd be relevant.
 
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Amanda Zimmer
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Th334 wrote:
iamzimmer wrote:
This reminds me of a clue I had received once: LAUNCH THREE.

Amanda, hilarious story! I might borrow it to replace my GRASS, PASTURE, GREEN the next time I try to explain a chain clue to somebody. PS: and I'm terribly sorry, but I have to admit that LAUNCH MOVIE is not something I would think of personally. I would likely touch MISSILE first (boys! shake), and then I may or may not have figured out the other two.

Yeah, I'd have though MISSILE should have been obvious too. I either just missed it or it was a different word eh heh. This was the second game of Codenames I ever played, so it is an old story. XP

I once tried the clue THROWING TWO for NINJA and STAR.
There weren't any words showing that were objects you would/could throw so even if it turned out to be a bust (which it totally was eh heh), it would have just been a wasted clue.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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It violate the rules. The clue has to relate to the word itself. Not to another guessed word. Giving the clue "green" for "cow" would be like giving the word "roof" for "cow" (because you know, cows live in a barn and a barn has a roof).
 
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Amanda Zimmer
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Wildhorn wrote:
It violate the rules. The clue has to relate to the word itself. Not to another guessed word. Giving the clue "green" for "cow" would be like giving the word "roof" for "cow" (because you know, cows live in a barn and a barn has a roof).

I'd been thinking this a while, but it seemed kind of moot since COW/GREEN was intended as an example of this kind of clue in general. But I will say it now anyway!

GREEN has several definitions outside of just being a color--like "green leafy vegetables". Have you ever been told to "eat your greens"?
Cows do eat "greens", so this could be a reasonably stretchy clue to hit COW + [GRASS, SALAD, etc]. Of course stretching into non-instantaneous meanings for GREEN could get broad/dangerous pretty quick. (ie: GREEN could also mean "inexperienced" or someone's "sickly/seasick complexion")
 
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Wildhorn wrote:
It violate the rules. The clue has to relate to the word itself. Not to another guessed word. Giving the clue "green" for "cow" would be like giving the word "roof" for "cow" (because you know, cows live in a barn and a barn has a roof).

Seems legit to me...
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iamzimmer wrote:
I once tried the clue THROWING TWO for NINJA and STAR.
There weren't any words showing that were objects you would/could throw so even if it turned out to be a bust (which it totally was eh heh), it would have just been a wasted clue.

Hehe, I think it's a good clue if people played any video games involving ninjas, good idea!

But I think your clue can be made even better: SHURIKEN TWO!

And by "better" I mean potentially a table full of blank faces and people forced to randomly guess and stumble on an assassin because they have no idea whatsoever what a shuriken is. Maybe don't say this if any food item is an assassin. But hey, at least they can't blame you after the game.
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Th334 wrote:
iamzimmer wrote:
I once tried the clue THROWING TWO for NINJA and STAR.

Hehe, I think it's a good clue if people played any video games involving ninjas, good idea!

But I think your clue can be made even better: SHURIKEN TWO!

And by "better" I mean a hilarious WTF reaction and people randomly picking an assassin because they have no idea whatsoever what a shuriken is. But hey, at least they can't blame you after the game.

I don't think there would have been any overlap with other words, but I'm not sure if the average person would go from SHURIKEN to STAR. [THROWING STAR, sure, but the word is just STAR.]
At the time I think I was very concerned about the word STAR (there were too many other "space/galaxy" type words out there that overlapped), so I was hoping that THROWING would have been able to net STAR, not the other galaxy/space words, and maybe NINJA (which also didn't link to other words), but it backfired and got neither.

Hur.... I could probably go for a while on this [stretchy clues], but it's also somewhat derailing your original topic [guessing a group words that link to the clue] so I'll stop [for now].
 
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iamzimmer wrote:
Hur.... I could probably go for a while on this [stretchy clues], but it's also somewhat derailing your original topic [guessing a group words that link to the clue] so I'll stop [for now].

I'm happy with what Moose Detective and some others said.

The rulebook lists what types of clues are illegal: cluing to spelling, placement on the board, using the number to clue other words, and using a part of a compound uncovered word. And in my mind, when the rulebook precedes this list by saying that "clues must be about the meaning of the words", it means this specifically in contrast to these exceptions: in contrast to cluing the spelling of the words, the placement of the words, etc. But otherwise, rules don't prohibit tenuous clues.

I'll have to stick to this reading until told otherwise by CGE or somebody's very good reasoning (and a working solution of where to draw the line between sufficiently direct clues and overly tenuous or personal, which is the key problem with ruling any other way).
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I wonder, if it is legal to use a clue, which does not link to any of the words alone, but can do so to multiple words together, for example "steak 2" as a clue for "rib" and "eye". I would say, this should be legal, though might be harder to be picked up (especially, if you do "steak 3" for rib, eye and cow). Any objections?
 
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Susumu wrote:
I wonder, if it is legal to use a clue, which does not link to any of the words alone, but can do so to multiple words together, for example "steak 2" as a clue for "rib" and "eye". I would say, this should be legal, though might be harder to be picked up (especially, if you do "steak 3" for rib, eye and cow). Any objections?

No, I think it's perfectly valid.

And steak DOES link to individual words, it's just not the most obvious link. Like for example steak, rib, and eye are all parts of an animal body, and allegedly crows enjoy eating all of these too.

You can even think in images. When I hear rib, eye, and steak, I have an image of a butcher (might be a better clue by the way), and so it makes intuitive sense to me that these words are all somehow related.

And as mentioned earlier, clues can be tenuous. It is CODENAMES after all, not Oxford Dictionary of English the Game!
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Susumu wrote:
I wonder, if it is legal to use a clue, which does not link to any of the words alone, but can do so to multiple words together, for example "steak 2" as a clue for "rib" and "eye". I would say, this should be legal, though might be harder to be picked up (especially, if you do "steak 3" for rib, eye and cow). Any objections?

I'd say it's legal but not if the spymaster intends the thought process you mentioned. RIBEYE doesn't relate to the individual meanings of RIB and EYE and thus can't be clued at via those separate words, but as has been noted, cows certainly do have body parts.
 
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Wildhorn wrote:
It violate the rules. The clue has to relate to the word itself. Not to another guessed word. Giving the clue "green" for "cow" would be like giving the word "roof" for "cow" (because you know, cows live in a barn and a barn has a roof).

Also, as far as "giving the word "roof" for "cow"":
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/cow-stuck-roof-most-...
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