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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Butcher level 3 strategy? rss

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Scott
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Looking at how insane this fight seems to be I would love to throw 4 nobodies at him and pray but the problem is the defeat penalty of losing all resources.

So assuming I’m going to do my best to defeat him what’s a solid strategy that has worked for you?

My thoughts: frenzied, zanbato wielding bloodpaint beacon shield leather armor survivors. I figure I have to try and overwhelm the butcher with additional wounds to minimize my cancellation rolls. I just can’t figure out how I’m gonna do 21 wounds of damage before he just completely wrecked sauce with the additional accuracy damage and speed.

What are your thoughts on how to defeat him or should I just spend as many resources as possible this settlement phase and pray to God I can do enough to defeat him with crappy survivors? Though 15 toughness is a challenge.

Edit: I ending up using a lantern frenzy strategy to drive the butcher away. Seemed like the lowest risk approach to protect the settlement.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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We always spend anything valuable beforehand, so it's a smaller gamble.

It sounds like you haven't fought him, so, kind of spoilery...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The best methods are low speed (so frenzy gets less uncontrollable) and things that don't roll to wound (I think the counterweighted axe in the core is the only one?), because they aren't ignored and don't draw reactions. Obviously, that ability that lets you still do things when frenzied is great, and mood mitigation is nice. Certain actions really mess with the fight, and it can occasionally get completely out of control.


And yes, he's really rough. You probably won't be able to beat him with anything less than your second line.
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BG.EXE
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Oh yeah, that’s an easy one. I go in, roll high on invincible, and die a long slow gruesome death.

Seriously I hit 14 invincible rolls. It sucks.

Edit: Side note, Blood Paint can’t be used with 2H weapons.
 
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Scott
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
Oh yeah, that’s an easy one. I go in, roll high on invincible, and die a long slow gruesome death.

Seriously I hit 14 invincible rolls. It sucks.


So you’re telling me there’s a chance. Invincible is what I’m worried about. On the Bell curve of dice rollers I’m at the very left side. I’ve accepted that and do everything I can to mitigate effects of Rolling. However invincible scares me. Maybe I’ll have my wife roll. She’s the type of person that can win at catan by placing her settlements on 2s and 12s.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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BGEXE, you think that's gross,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Invincible used to be a 6+ yuk

I lost track of it, but usually rolled about 2 failures to one wound... my group only ever beat the original version of a level 3 once.
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Scott
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:


Edit: Side note, Blood Paint can’t be used with 2H weapons.


Oh yea. These things always sound good until I actually try the build and see the fine print.
 
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Scott
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
BGEXE, you think that's gross,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Invincible used to be a 6+ yuk

I lost track of it, but usually rolled about 2 failures to one wound... my group only ever beat the original version of a level 3 once.


That crazy. You pretty much need to wound him 30x to kill him then. 8+ isn’t so bad but still works out to 26 or 27 wounds on average. This will be my first level 3 showdown.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Yeah, the part where it counts as failed (not nullified) is just brutal. I don't think I've sworn so much in a KD fight as those.

Good luck- level 3 of any monster type for the first time is pretty brutal.
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BG.EXE
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
BGEXE, you think that's gross,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Invincible used to be a 6+ yuk

I lost track of it, but usually rolled about 2 failures to one wound... my group only ever beat the original version of a level 3 once.

That’s crazy brutal!!
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Yeah, your advantage with l3 is that it has the same vulnerabilities of L1: mostly targets threats, has subpar accuracy.

Invincible used to be a pain, now it got downgraded a lot. L3 Butcher used to be worst nemesis out there because of that, now it has just a big hit/damage output, you can counter it the usual ways. Go for high evasion and block everything. Harp to discard moods, bandages, put always furious scrag on top when it pops up for an easy crit.
 
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Nealo Myerson
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I'm fighting him and have an hour ring... am I crazy that I fail and use the ring. Then I had the resource to make another (for backup) so i try again?)

When I read invincible:
When the Butcher is wounded.

I interpreted this as:

1. Counter weighted Axe doesn't work. It says On a Perfect hit, do not draw a hit location. Monster suffers one wound.

It's a wound. So I still roll. Am I doing this wrong?

2. Crits? I counted them as wounds... so I kept rolled.

I went about this fight as:

1. I have a beserker. One claw head arrow. Hope a hit. Berserker. 2x Hollowpoint Arrow. This guy also has the frenzy movement thing.

Even with this setup I was losing. But I can make a counterweight axe and boy that would help. I just need to keep him out of his front, since most are facing.






 
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Nick Wirtz
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If things can damage survivors left and right without using the "hit" rule and circumvent block/dodge/damage reduction, I'm sure as hell going to take advantage of wounds not caused by wound rolls circumventing something that makes a wound roll fail.
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The Awaited King
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We beat Lv3 Butcher yesterday but it was a long (3+ hours) fight that was very very close. If it lasted a round or two more we would probably lost as we were mostly out of armour and survival. Invincible trait is a bitch - even with nerf from 1.5 Butcher still rolled so high that he avoided most of the damage. We had some bad luck there but I think the card somehow messes up with a probability. It feels like at least 2 out of 3 rolls on this were 8+. F***!

I genuinly see no way of beating him on Lv3 with just the core content, unless there is some magic trick to get a ton of evasion on your main tank. It's must! With +2ACC tokens and 3*AI per round LV3 Butcher hits all the time.

Our main tank was Acanthus Doctor with 7 evasion and without him everyone would have died really really fast.

A girl with full Lantern set and a Glaive was the main damage dealer (axe spec helps a lot - it's a must for this fight). If I went again for this fight I would have given an axe to everyone.

We also had a Vespertine Bow user that had some moments sniping from a 9 range distance.

The last part member was a full Gorm set user with Zanbato who rolled so poorly I think he only damaged once and survived only thanks to being Unconcious Fighter (7 bleeds to kill, he was at 6). I would not take Zanbato on this fight again - I feel like another axe would have been better.

Other notes:
- take a Whisker Harp for nasty moods;
- have at least 2 sets of bandages;
- Forget the Cat Eye Circlet and Rawhide Headband - these are useless here as he just moves to fast (3*AI + reshuffling a HL deck all the time).
- potion of wisdom is useful if you have a Zanbato but as I said I would rather use another axe instead of Zanbato next time;
- move the fight towards the pillars on the side of the map - they helped me a ton allowing wounded characters to hide; Fecal Salve could also help;
- survival is as always key - we had a limit of 13 and by the end of the fight almost everyone was down to zero - one person had Death Pact and only she was still going so if you can bring a lot of Survival generating stuff (we didn't have anyone with Abyssal Sadist, but it would be on top of my list if possible on everyone - Sculpture it!)
- things that generate damage without wound roll will help a lot (we had some luck with armour spikes from Gorm but there are better things there like Conterweight Axe and Amber Poleaxe);
- Gorm Pulse Lantern could be helpful but we did not had it.

Fun fact: The last Butcher AI was Double Hack and if he would have delivered it 3 times he would have killed our Glaive user so we surged on the flow and killed him while the Double Hack was in play effectively wounding him one less time then needed. If she was dead we would probably lost a fight. It saved us so I thought I would share it with you because we almost forgot this was an option when playing and it was a big "A-ha!" moment for us.

Fun fact 2: we were lucky enough to kill him on a Final Blow location. It was the moment we regretted not taking our A-team to get that permanent evasion bonus
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C SS
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The big issue i had with this fight was Screaming. It's hard to prevent it from showing up since the AI deck moves so fast, and once it happens everyone is on frenzy and not being able to spend survival made the fight so much harder.
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J J
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kurczaczekx wrote:

I genuinly see no way of beating him on Lv3 with just the core content, unless there is some magic trick to get a ton of evasion on your main tank. It's must! With +2ACC tokens and 3*AI per round LV3 Butcher hits all the time.


I just played against him and beat him using only core content. Had a Leyline Walker with +2 natural evasion + activated Monster Grease for +7 evasion meaning the Butcher only hit him on 9s and 10s. Add in a beacon shield with surge and being able to dodge twice in a turn and he could survive for quite a while against even a level 3 Butcher.

The rest of my team included a support character mostly using Cat Eye Circlet and occasionally Arc Bow or Bandages along with two heavy hitters with high accuracy + strength and Dragon Slayers that were hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ every attack.
 
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Gerrit G.
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We defeated the level 2 Butcher before it even got to activate a second time. So we thought we had a good chance of defeating the level 3 Butcher with our A-team. We lost the whole team in three rounds.

I wonder where that enormous difference in power comes from. The level 2 already activated 3 AI cards per turn. The +3 toughness was counteracted by our better gear. We also had better defense, which should have counteracted the +1 speed and +1 damage somewhat. Sure, the fight would have taken longer due to more AI cards and due to Invincible, but still.

I guess one aspect that we underestimated was the amount of bleed he could dole out. The extra speed was more crucial than the extra damage here, since higher speed meant more hits which mattered a lot with the bleed after damage effects. We defeated the level 2 so quickly that the bleeding didn't matter. Since the level 3 takes (quite a bit) longer to defeat, the bleeding absolutely did matter. Especially when combined with bleed effects that scale with the monster level.

Spending activations to remove bleed tokens didn't feel that great either since doing that rather than attacking prolongued the fight. And the Butcher dealt more bleed in a single attack than one activations could remove anyway.
 
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George Aristides
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Star Slayer wrote:

I guess one aspect that we underestimated was the amount of bleed he could dole out. The extra speed was more crucial than the extra damage here, since higher speed meant more hits which mattered a lot with the bleed after damage effects. We defeated the level 2 so quickly that the bleeding didn't matter. Since the level 3 takes (quite a bit) longer to defeat, the bleeding absolutely did matter. Especially when combined with bleed effects that scale with the monster level.

Spending activations to remove bleed tokens didn't feel that great either since doing that rather than attacking prolongued the fight. And the Butcher dealt more bleed in a single attack than one activations could remove anyway.


Huh? Am I missing something?
I thought that most of the Butcher's attacks with a Bleed after-damage effect apply the same amount of bleed regardless of the speed of the attack and how many attack rolls hit. (or are you just saying that the higher speed means it's more likely that at least two of the attacks hit and thus dodge can't prevent everything?)

For example, check out this card:


It's got a Bleed 1 after-damage effect.
If any of the attacks hit, the target gets 1 bleeding token. But if, say, three of the attacks hit, the target will still get only 1 bleeding token.

I hope I am not being wrong here otherwise I have been playing it completely wrong so far!!

Edit: I also found this discussion which backs my interpretation
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1561058/how-do-after-damage...
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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No, you are right. After Damage triggers apply after damage has been dealt, IF damage has been dealt.
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Star Slayer wrote:
I wonder where that enormous difference in power comes from. The level 2 already activated 3 AI cards per turn. The +3 toughness was counteracted by our better gear. We also had better defense, which should have counteracted the +1 speed and +1 damage somewhat. Sure, the fight would have taken longer due to more AI cards and due to Invincible, but still.


There are 2 huge differences that seem small at first, but have a huge impact (aside from Invincible -- that one's obvious): the +2 accuracy tokens, and brain damage based on monster level.

When all his attacks have 4+ accuracy at level it's really, really easy to tank him. If you have SotF and Clan of Death + Monster Grease he'll hit on 8s. Get Tall Grass and a 0XP survivor can tank him forever. Doesn't work nearly as well when he hits on 2+.

Secondly, when he's level 3 any level based brain damage will Frenzy you immediately. And since his AI deck is just every card you're guaranteed that he has the one that Intimidates everyone. Once that hits you're in for a tough time as your survival actions are turned off.

The best way to fight him is to have a tank with 8 evasion (crystal skin + leyline walker plz -- an Immortal survivor can help a lot too) and be VERY careful with his targeting. Fecal Salve can help a lot with that. If you get out of position due to a reaction or something his 3 AI cards can absolutely shred someone who's not prepared. Then you just slog through Invicible -- ideally with Devastating and/or the Counterweighted Axe.

Also good luck when he Lantern Frenzy targets your support char. Dude's a beast.
 
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Gerrit G.
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nobody82b wrote:
It's got a Bleed 1 after-damage effect.
If any of the attacks hit, the target gets 1 bleeding token. But if, say, three of the attacks hit, the target will still get only 1 bleeding token.

Holy cow, I just looked it up and it says on page 71 of the rulebook: "Attack effects are triggerd once per attack."

ONCE PER ATTACK

For our whole campaign, we played attack triggers as once per HIT. So we played the level 3 Butcher like:
6 speed > 4 hits > 1 dodged > 3 hits remaining > 3 bleed tokens due to 3x After Damage Bleed 1

Holy cow, he would have never hacked us apart as quickly as he did if we played that one correctly.

Taboobat wrote:
Star Slayer wrote:
I wonder where that enormous difference in power comes from. The level 2 already activated 3 AI cards per turn. The +3 toughness was counteracted by our better gear. We also had better defense, which should have counteracted the +1 speed and +1 damage somewhat. Sure, the fight would have taken longer due to more AI cards and due to Invincible, but still.


There are 2 huge differences that seem small at first, but have a huge impact (aside from Invincible -- that one's obvious): the +2 accuracy tokens, and brain damage based on monster level.

When all his attacks have 4+ accuracy at level it's really, really easy to tank him. If you have SotF and Clan of Death + Monster Grease he'll hit on 8s. Get Tall Grass and a 0XP survivor can tank him forever. Doesn't work nearly as well when he hits on 2+.

Yeah, those accuracy tokens definitely played a huge part in making the level 3 Butcher much more menacing than the level 2 Butcher. Those tokens probably had a bigger impact than the +2 damage tokens had.
 
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George Aristides
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Star Slayer wrote:
nobody82b wrote:
It's got a Bleed 1 after-damage effect.
If any of the attacks hit, the target gets 1 bleeding token. But if, say, three of the attacks hit, the target will still get only 1 bleeding token.

Holy cow, I just looked it up and it says on page 71 of the rulebook: "Attack effects are triggerd once per attack."

ONCE PER ATTACK

For our whole campaign, we played attack triggers as once per HIT. So we played the level 3 Butcher like:
6 speed > 4 hits > 1 dodged > 3 hits remaining > 3 bleed tokens due to 3x After Damage Bleed 1

Holy cow, he would have never hacked us apart as quickly as he did if we played that one correctly.


You are welcome
 
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Emmit Svenson
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In my last fight against L3 Butcher, my MVP was a failed candidate for the Gold Smoke Knight fight. She had high speed and very low accuracy, but had lost an eye, which meant she couldn't use the Timeless Eye fighting art.

For the Butcher fight, that mattered little. I let the other survivors plink away at the Butcher and soak up damage while she played things safe in a bandage/headband/amulet support role. Then, when frenzy tokens had stacked everyone's weapon speed to a dangerous level, she swooped in with her Counterweighted Axe and tore through his remaining cards with no fear of triggering a trap.

It's always fun when the sacrificial lambs you sent to a fight end up winning it.
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Sergiy Demchenko
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Get the immortal survivor with grand weapon and high insanity. Let him tank for 1 round (most likely he will suffer frenzy 3 times). Enjoy your 4 speed Zanbato

Or get 4 survivors with homophobia (hello mineral gathering) for a fight. They will be knocked down pretty quickly, so, most likely, he will perform Menace, since there are no threats. Make sure, you target your Zanbato user with menace and enjoy your fight
 
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Chester
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I can’t stop laughing about “homophobia”.
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Alessio Massuoli
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And to think that the butcher seemed such a burly fellow.

However, what kind of menace knocks down a homophobe?

(I hope nobody gets offended, but at any rate I apologize in advance )
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