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Subject: Enemy ranged attack focus without movement rss

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Jared Miller
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Sorry if this is answered somewhere, but it seems like there are dozens of threads asking about various enemy focus scenarios, so it's difficult finding specific ones.

Anyway, was just starting my campaign last night (super excited!) and a scenario came up with the Bandit Archers where their card indicated they would attack but not move. We had 3 characters vertically in a line all within range of the archer's attack, and an archer was adjacent to 2 of them. Kind of like this (where X's are characters and the O is the archer):
_
X\_
_/O\
X\_/
_/
X\
_/

Would the archer focus one of the two adjacent characters (whomever has earlier initiative) despite causing Disadvantage, or would they focus the further away character?

Also curious, if the archer did have a move then attack command, would he focus one of the adjacent characters and move one step away (assuming empty hexes available around him), or would he focus the further character and not move at all?

Thanks!
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Joshua Imobersteg
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Focus is determined before moving or attacking. So with your example the archer would focus on the adjacent character with the lowest initiative and attack that one.

If the archer didnhave movement,the focus would be the same and the archer would try to move the shortest distance to lose the disadvantage.
 
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Jerold Wallis

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See the files section for
Gloomhaven Enemy Focus and Movement Flowchart

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/144945/gloomhaven-enemy-f...

I think it will answer this and similar questions.

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Jeremy Loehr
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The focus is always on the closest character with the lowest initiative, regardless of disadvantage.

In your situation, the archer would attack one of the adjacent characters at disadvantage.

If the archer had move, the focus would be the same character as above, but the archer would move back one space to loss disadvantage.

If the Archer is muddled (disadvantage) with a move, he would not move since he can not loss disadvantage.

All example would have the same focused character.
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Per Erlandsson
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midgar wrote:
The focus is always on the closest character with the lowest initiative, regardless of disadvantage.


Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

In short ”picking Focus” happens pretty late in the process of deciding how Monsters move! But in most cases (open room and high move) you can just look at distance and initiative. Milti target ranged attacks in crowded rooms are probably the most complicated.
 
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Jay Johnson
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In the case where a monster with a ranged attack (and movement) steps back from an adjacent enemy (to avoid disadvantage) and fires,
there is quite often multiple hexes where they could go (all just requiring 1 move, and yielding the same proximity to their current focus).
Is there any official protocol for determining which hex the monster would choose n that case?

Officially, I suppose it is an "ambiguous case, thus players decide"
personally, I always figure that they would avoid moving adjacent to a different enemy if possible, and also move in such a manner that would be advantageous to its fellow monsters (as long as it didn't interfere with its own non-disadvantaged shot or cause extra movement). but that's more of a thematic choice than any sort of protocol.
 
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Jared Miller
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Thanks for clearing this up folks, and the for the flowchart!
 
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Fito R
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JayJ79 wrote:
In the case where a monster with a ranged attack (and movement) steps back from an adjacent enemy (to avoid disadvantage) and fires,
there is quite often multiple hexes where they could go (all just requiring 1 move, and yielding the same proximity to their current focus).
Is there any official protocol for determining which hex the monster would choose n that case?

Officially, I suppose it is an "ambiguous case, thus players decide"
personally, I always figure that they would avoid moving adjacent to a different enemy if possible, and also move in such a manner that would be advantageous to its fellow monsters (as long as it didn't interfere with its own non-disadvantaged shot or cause extra movement). but that's more of a thematic choice than any sort of protocol.
In this case, as with all others, players decide. You may decide to always do it to the player's advantage or disadvantage. But the choice is always up to the players.
 
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Jay Johnson
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perer005 wrote:
Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

I'm not sure that is correct.

rulebook, bottom of pg 29 wrote:
In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemy figures (e.g., because it starts its turn within range of multiple enemies), proximity from the monster’s current position (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for determining “closest.”

So it uses its CURRENT location (before moving) to determine the closest monster to focus on, as long as it can get to a hex from which to attack that enemy.
So in your scenario, I think it would focus on player A.
 
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Per Erlandsson
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JayJ79 wrote:
perer005 wrote:
Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

I'm not sure that is correct.

rulebook-p29 wrote:
In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemy figures (e.g., because it starts its turn within range of multiple enemies), proximity from the monster’s current position (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for determining “closest.”

So it uses its CURRENT location (before moving) to determine the closest monster to focus on, as long as it can get to a hex from which to attack that enemy.
So in your scenario, I think it would focus on player A.

You might be looking at some outdated version of the rules, what I wrote above is what the "checklist from Isaac" says you should do and matches the 2nd edition rules, quoted below:

rulebook-p29 wrote:
A monster will focus on the enemy figure it can perform its current attack against using the least
amount of movement. It finds the shortest possible path to get in range and line-of-sight to use its
attack, and the figure that can be attacked at the end of that path is the focus. This enemy figure is
considered the “closest.” It doesn’t matter if the monster can’t get within range to attack with its
current movement, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range. If a monster does not have
an attack listed on its ability card for the round, it finds a focus as if it had a melee attack. In the case
where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of
multiple enemy figures (e.g., because it starts its turn within range of multiple enemies), proximity from
the monster’s current position (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then
checked as a tie-breaker for determining “closest.”
 
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Joshua Imobersteg
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JayJ79 wrote:
perer005 wrote:
Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

I'm not sure that is correct.

rulebook, bottom of pg 29 wrote:
In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemy figures (e.g., because it starts its turn within range of multiple enemies), proximity from the monster’s current position (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for determining “closest.”

So it uses its CURRENT location (before moving) to determine the closest monster to focus on, as long as it can get to a hex from which to attack that enemy.
So in your scenario, I think it would focus on player A.



If the monster would have to move farther (assuming infinite movement) to get to a hex from where it could attack Player A than it would have to move to attack Player B, the Player B would be the focus, not Player A, even if Player A is physically closer to the monster.
 
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Per Erlandsson
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JayJ79 wrote:
perer005 wrote:
Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

I'm not sure that is correct.

rulebook, bottom of pg 29 wrote:
In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemy figures (e.g., because it starts its turn within range of multiple enemies), proximity from the monster’s current position (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for determining “closest.”

So it uses its CURRENT location (before moving) to determine the closest monster to focus on, as long as it can get to a hex from which to attack that enemy.
So in your scenario, I think it would focus on player A.


I think I understand where the confusion comes from, take a look at the Isaac approved flow-chart for determining Monster Movement/Focus. The tiebreaker you are talking about is if there are multiple paths of equal length to a hex from where you can attack a target (Focus), this tiebreaker for paths will be decided by proximity then initiative. But it does not mean that if only one shortest path exists you will get a tiebreaker on who is Focus based on "current position proximity". The Tiebreaker you invoke is about which path monsters take if there is a tie, not which focus you pick if there is only one shortest path!


https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download/vn3y6sc6re/Gloomhave...
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Jay Johnson
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perer005 wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
perer005 wrote:
Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

I'm not sure that is correct.

rulebook, bottom of pg 29 wrote:
In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemy figures (e.g., because it starts its turn within range of multiple enemies), proximity from the monster’s current position (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for determining “closest.”

So it uses its CURRENT location (before moving) to determine the closest monster to focus on, as long as it can get to a hex from which to attack that enemy.
So in your scenario, I think it would focus on player A.


I think I understand where the confusion comes from, take a look at the Isaac approved flow-chart for determining Monster Movement/Focus. The tiebreaker you are talking about is if there are multiple paths of equal length to a hex from where you can attack a target (Focus), this tiebreaker for paths will be decided by proximity then initiative. But it does not mean that if only one shortest path exists you will get a tiebreaker on who is Focus based on "current position proximity". The Tiebreaker you invoke is about which path monsters take if there is a tie, not which focus you pick if there is only one shortest path!


https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download/vn3y6sc6re/Gloomhave...

We're looking at the same rulebook, but evidently interpretting it differently.

The key distinction in our differing interpretations is the "current location" in terms of the proximity tiebreak. We're both talking about moving to the same hex (G), but the confusion comes because Player A is closer in proximity to the monster's original location, while Player B is closer in proximity to the monster's destination (hex G). Both players are within attack range from hex G.
If you look at the flowchart, focus is determined prior to the monster actually moving, and thus the CURRENT location from which proximity is determined is not hex G, but the location that the Monster is at prior to the move. Hence I maintain that the monster will move to hex G and attack player A.

Think of it in terms of a monster with a ranged attack who starts out adjacent to Player X. That monster will focus on Player X, but in order to avoid Disadvantage, the monster will step back a hex. That movement places the monster adjacent to Player Y. But the monster still maintains focus on Player X, who was closer in proximity to the monster's original location, even though Player Y is closer in proximity to the hex that the monster moves to.
 
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Per Erlandsson
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JayJ79 wrote:
The key distinction in our differing interpretations is the "current location" in terms of the proximity tiebreak. We're both talking about moving to the same hex (G), but the confusion comes because Player A is closer in proximity to the monster's original location, while Player B is closer in proximity to the monster's destination (hex G). Both players are within attack range from hex G.
If you look at the flowchart, focus is determined prior to the monster actually moving, and thus the CURRENT location from which proximity is determined is not hex G, but the location that the Monster is at prior to the move. Hence I maintain that the monster will move to hex G and attack player A.

Think of it in terms of a monster with a ranged attack who starts out adjacent to Player X. That monster will focus on Player X, but in order to avoid Disadvantage, the monster will step back a hex. That movement places the monster adjacent to Player Y. But the monster still maintains focus on Player X, who was closer in proximity to the monster's original location, even though Player Y is closer in proximity to the hex that the monster moves to.

Yes, focus is always determined BEFORE you actually move the piece, but NOT BEFORE you decide which hex requires the least amount of moves to make an attack (aka find a Focus)! What we are discussing is not the normal situation where there is one hex from where to do attacks, but a special situation where MULTIPLE HEXES takes the same number of steps to reach. When breaking the tie on which HEX to choose you use the obstacte-ignoring distance to the potential Focus targets for each hex to decide which hex you move to! You pick that hex and then do the normal "picking a better hex" based on remove disadvantage and getting multiple targets. All of this is decided before anything moves or attacks. You never decide the Focus based on obstacle-free distance, it's the path/hex you pick, but since those two can be linked it is understandable that many assume Focus is picked first.

Your example with Player X and Y is all about the "picking a better hex" step! The monster is already in range of a target so it's "square from where to decide Focus" is where it stands, thus X is Focus and it will try to minimize disadvantage vs X! What we were talking about is how the monster decides which hex to "decide focus from", something which is trivial in your example since the Monster already is in range.
 
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Jay Johnson
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you play it your way, I'll play it mine.
My monster will be moving to hex G and attacking Player A.

I can't even remember how we got into this argument here anyway, since the OP is about ranged attack WITHOUT movement
 
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Sonny A.
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How does ranged AE work with focus. If it has 3 targets in range, but the focus would be attacked alone and any of the other 2 targets would hit both of them. Would AI favor the 2 targets (optimal attack) or a single target with lowest initiative (regular focus)?
 
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Bernard
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Someone made a new flowchart that might be easier to use: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/27704152
 
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Per Erlandsson
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SonnyDK wrote:
How does ranged AE work with focus. If it has 3 targets in range, but the focus would be attacked alone and any of the other 2 targets would hit both of them. Would AI favor the 2 targets (optimal attack) or a single target with lowest initiative (regular focus)?

The Focus must be part of the attack! The prio is to not get Disadvantage on Focus and after that to hit as many targets as possible (with minimum movement).
 
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Fito R
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JayJ79 wrote:
you play it your way, I'll play it mine.
My monster will be moving to hex G and attacking Player A.

I can't even remember how we got into this argument here anyway, since the OP is about ranged attack WITHOUT movement
No one is telling you not to play a certain way, just that your interpretation of the rules is incorrect, and you should keep that in mind when answering others' questions.
 
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Tolis Alex
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perer005 wrote:
midgar wrote:
The focus is always on the closest character with the lowest initiative, regardless of disadvantage.


Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

In short ”picking Focus” happens pretty late in the process of deciding how Monsters move! But in most cases (open room and high move) you can just look at distance and initiative. Milti target ranged attacks in crowded rooms are probably the most complicated.


I am a bit lost in translation here.
Would you please provide an example (draw or image) of what exactly you mean here, so that I can understand?

 
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Joshua Imobersteg
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tolhs wrote:
perer005 wrote:
midgar wrote:
The focus is always on the closest character with the lowest initiative, regardless of disadvantage.


Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

In short ”picking Focus” happens pretty late in the process of deciding how Monsters move! But in most cases (open room and high move) you can just look at distance and initiative. Milti target ranged attacks in crowded rooms are probably the most complicated.


I am a bit lost in translation here.
Would you please provide an example (draw or image) of what exactly you mean here, so that I can understand?



Let my grab a map and give an example.
 
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Dee Wongsa
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tolhs wrote:
perer005 wrote:
midgar wrote:
The focus is always on the closest character with the lowest initiative, regardless of disadvantage.


Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

In short ”picking Focus” happens pretty late in the process of deciding how Monsters move! But in most cases (open room and high move) you can just look at distance and initiative. Milti target ranged attacks in crowded rooms are probably the most complicated.


I am a bit lost in translation here.
Would you please provide an example (draw or image) of what exactly you mean here, so that I can understand?



A good example is in the rule book on page 31 (first picture at the top). The skeleton is closer to the Tinkerer (a) but it actually focuses on the further away Brute (b). So the focus is not always the closest character with lowest initiative.

You have to first take into account the shortest path to get to a position where the player character can be attacked. If the path to get into position to attack a character 2 hexes away is actually longer than the path to attack a character that's 3 hexes away (due to obstacles or traps), the monster is going to go for the enemy that's 3 hexes away.

Edit: After reading this more carefully, I don't think perer005 is correct. If the monster is moving to hex G and both player A and B are in range of hex G, then there's a tie for which player the monster will focus. The tie breaker is which one is closest to the monster before it moved. So in this case, player A
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Joshua Imobersteg
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IGNORE, this example was wrong
 
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Tolis Alex
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nungunz wrote:
tolhs wrote:
perer005 wrote:
midgar wrote:
The focus is always on the closest character with the lowest initiative, regardless of disadvantage.


Note that the ”decision” above doesn’t happen until AFTER the monster/summon has traced the shortest path to a hex they can attack from! So even if a monster started out ”closest” to player A but needed to move to hex G to attack anything and square G is closer to player B (both A & B are in range) it will Focus on B!

In short ”picking Focus” happens pretty late in the process of deciding how Monsters move! But in most cases (open room and high move) you can just look at distance and initiative. Milti target ranged attacks in crowded rooms are probably the most complicated.


I am a bit lost in translation here.
Would you please provide an example (draw or image) of what exactly you mean here, so that I can understand?



Let my grab a map and give an example.



If you are not good with drawing, you should yes!!


The wording that doesn't understand/agree with though in the above quote is that "both A & B are in range". If they are both in range why focus on B? Thus, the need for the example.
 
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Joshua Imobersteg
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tolhs wrote:

If you are not good with drawing, you should yes!!


The wording that doesn't understand though in the above quote is that "both A & B are in range". If they are both in range why focus on B? Thus, the need for the example.


Example above. Just pretend the elite guard has a speed of 5, not 3.

Note: Just a sec example was wrong.
 
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