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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Another measuring question! rss

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Anthony Wilborn
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I've attached a few pictures for reference and am wondering which version is the proper way to measure. Both examples are measuring attacks from the k-wing to the TIE and possibly through an obstruction!

1:not obstructed


2:obstructed


Also, just as a clarification, touching an obstruction is not considered overlapping an obstruction, correct?
 
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brian
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It is supposed to be the closest points between the two bases and you are to stand the ruler on edge (not flat) to see if it is obstructed. So your first pic is correct if you stand it on edge. (Unless the FAQ has changed it once again and I missed it.)
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Bryan Becker
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it would be a lot easier to tell if the bases weren't at such odd angles to each other.

It is always closest point to closest point. In this case the closest point of the K-Wing is obvious. But due to the angle the TIE is at, it is hard to tell where it's closest point is. So use the starboard front corner of the K-wing as a pivot, and where ever the distance is shortest on the stick is your shortest point.

If it is so close as to be indistinguishable, then you must conclude it is effectively parallel. Geometrically impossible I know, but we don't have calipers here. In cases where there are multiple points of equal distance, the attacker gets to choose where the measurements are taken from.

Based on what I see in your picture though, I'd say pic 1 is the closest.
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Andreas Kr├╝ger
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"Touching" is something that the rules just don't care about, except in the context of ships that you overlapped - and then it is a defined game term. I guess in the unlikely event that an infinitely thin ruler would just touch the border of an obstacle, you would have to toss a coin/ roll dice to resolve the dispute :-).
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Collector THX1138
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konicki wrote:
I've attached a few pictures for reference and am wondering which version is the proper way to measure. Both examples are measuring attacks from the k-wing to the TIE and possibly through an obstruction!

1:not obstructed


2:obstructed


Also, just as a clarification, touching an obstruction is not considered overlapping an obstruction, correct?

no.1 is closest point to closest point on the ship bases using the very edge of the ruler.

An "Army Painter target laser line" can be helpful. Although if you have shaky hands it might not ;

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Bryan Becker
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Collection 1138 wrote:

no.1 is closest point to closest point on the ship bases using the very edge of the ruler.

An "Army Painter target laser line" can be helpful. Although if you have shaky hands it might not ;


That is why I always cringe when someone break out a laser line. No one has hands steady enough to have them be useful. It you don't have a stand for it, it is worse than useless. I have seen lasers show stuff in arc that when measured with the rules are are clearly out of arc and vice versa.
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Jeff Alexander
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xbeaker wrote:
If it is so close as to be indistinguishable, then you must conclude it is effectively parallel
That's not correct. Ships are only parallel if their edges have the same angles as each other. Your target has to be parallel and directly ahead of you for there to be multiple firing lines of the same length. Any other situation and there's only one shortest line.



Pic #1 in the original post is correct.
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Bryan Becker
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yes, but if the measuring tools you have cannot give you a clear closest point, and the angle of the bases do not give you a clear closest point, than you must play them as parallel. Your examples all give supremely simplified and obvious closest point, or parallel situations. In the game is is not always so clear cut. Consider example 2 in your drawing..

Were these all perfect measurements on a grid you could say that the center of the 45 ship to the point of the square ship is the closest point. But if you have played any X-wing you know that there are never perfects. If that bottom ship's angle is actually 91.5 degrees, now one of the points could be closer, then if the other ship is maybe not true but it is 54 degrees. Now take it a step further and say one ship is at roughly 80 degrees, and the other roughly 35. Lacking visual cues like the square edge of the board, our eyes are very poor tools.

It can get very difficult in some situations to determine the true closest point. In those cases, if the players cannot determine the closest point, they should be considered effective parallel (within the reasonable range of the closest area) and it is the attacker's choice of where the closest point actually lies.

It is very rare that this occurs, but I have seen it.
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Jeff Alexander
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xbeaker wrote:
yes, but if the measuring tools you have cannot give you a clear closest point, and the angle of the bases do not give you a clear closest point, than you must play them as parallel.
Only the second half of that is true (and, you're right, it can be a tough call). However, if there is clearly a "twist" between the two bases (and there is in the OP and in my image #2), the ships are not parallel and you don't get to play them like they are -- there is exactly one shortest line, and the proper way to resolve it is to come to mutual agreement or call over a neutral arbiter. It's never "attacker's choice" when one of the two endpoints is known to be a corner.

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Consider example 2 in your drawing... If that bottom ship's angle is actually 91.5 degrees, now one of the points could be closer, then if the other ship is maybe not true but it is 54 degrees. Now take it a step further and say one ship is at roughly 80 degrees, and the other roughly 35. Lacking visual cues like the square edge of the board, our eyes are very poor tools.
I debated whether to make the images similar so the differences stood out more or to twist them to avoid giving the false impression that orientation to the board mattered. Clearly, I chose wrong. Thanks for the feedback. I've updated things to avoid that.
 
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Dave Rathbun
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xbeaker wrote:
Collection 1138 wrote:

no.1 is closest point to closest point on the ship bases using the very edge of the ruler.

An "Army Painter target laser line" can be helpful. Although if you have shaky hands it might not ;


That is why I always cringe when someone break out a laser line. No one has hands steady enough to have them be useful. It you don't have a stand for it, it is worse than useless. I have seen lasers show stuff in arc that when measured with the rules are are clearly out of arc and vice versa.
I use a Black and Decker laser. It looks like a regular tape measure, so you can set it down on the game mat and leave shaky hands out of the equation. I also test it periodically by shooting a line down the edge of the mat to make sure it doesn't diverge.
 
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