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Subject: Enemy Ranged Focus with multiple targets rss

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John X
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I know this is a common style of question and I know I'm about to be referred to the flow chart even though I've read it but here it goes anyway.

. b 3 .
. x .
1 M a 2

M = Monster with range 3 attack, target 2, and move 5 or something.
x = obstacle
1/2/3 = Characters with that initiative.
a/b = empty hexes, labeled purely for descriptive purposes.

So following our trusty flowchart, monster M will pick character 1 for its focus as it's a valid target and has the closest proximity (and has lowest initiative but that doesn't matter as there's no tie). Next we prioritize losing disadvantage so we must move, but there are lots of hexes that lose disadvantage. The closest one is a.

So does the monster move to a? and then attack 2 because that is the next lowest initiative even though they're disadvantaged and they could target 3 "more optimally"?

Or does the monster move to b where it can maximize its attack on the lowest initiative characters at the cost of an extra movement?

###

Similar but related question, this time our monster only has range 2.

. . 3 . .
. x . .
1 M a . 2

Clearly the monster will step back and target character 1, but will its additional target be on character 2 or 3?

Before moving the characters in range were only 1 and 3 so presumably he would step to a place he can attack them both the best, but in doing so he became in range of 2. Does he forget about 3 because now there's a character with lower initiative in his range?
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Arthur Janicek
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In your first example, M targets 1 & 2, moves to b and shoots from there.

In your second example, M targets 1 & 3, moves to a and shoots from there.

Good questions tho. Especially the second one. Those are my gut responses.
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Gutripper
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Very good examples... bit of a brain teaser

For the first one I'd say he'd keep moving until he's in a space without disadvantage targeting as many characters as possible. He can move to top left dot and target 1 and 3 without disadvantage

Second one I would say he moves to a and targets 1 and 2 due to initiative order

 
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Dee Wongsa
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First scenario: ignore this stuff this was wrong.


Second scenario:


. . 3 . .
. x . .
1 M a . 2


Monster moves to a because that's the closest spot for maximum attack effect against the focus and as many other enemies as possible. Then it attacks 1. After that, it recalculates its focus. Focus is based on its current position and it's already finished doing a movement action to a. Therefore 2 and 3 are tied for proximity so it'll check initiative and target 2.

(I'm realizing now that the flowchart I made is incorrect for these scenarios and I need to take it down...)

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John X
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dejadee wrote:
The monster would move to c:


c b 3 .
. x .
1 M a 2


This is because a monster will try to 1) lose disadvantage and 2) maximize attacks on secondary targets, in that order. Option c lets it attack its focus without disadvantage, and one secondary target, also without disadvantage (the "maximum effect" rule).

It would attack 1, then 3. The "shortest possible path" rule is only to determine which enemy is the focus. Here, the answer is clearly 1.

The monster in this case has range of 3, so I fail to see why it would prioritize space c and attacking 1 and 3 rather than going to space b and attacking 1 and 2 (in both cases with no disadvantage).

Is that just because 3 is closer to hex c than 2 is to hex b?
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Ben Kester
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This has been an enlightening discussion. Good work, everyone.

dejadee wrote:
The monster would move to c:


c b 3 .
. x .
1 M a 2


This is because a monster will try to 1) lose disadvantage and 2) maximize attacks on secondary targets, in that order. Option c lets it attack its focus without disadvantage, and one secondary target, also without disadvantage (the "maximum effect" rule).

It would attack 1, then 3. The "shortest possible path" rule is only to determine which enemy is the focus. Here, the answer is clearly 1.


The "shortest possible path" is defined as fewest moves to attack. 1 is the focus not because it's closer but because it "wins" the lowest initiative tiebreaker.
 
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Dee Wongsa
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Johnorama wrote:
dejadee wrote:
The monster would move to c:


c b 3 .
. x .
1 M a 2


This is because a monster will try to 1) lose disadvantage and 2) maximize attacks on secondary targets, in that order. Option c lets it attack its focus without disadvantage, and one secondary target, also without disadvantage (the "maximum effect" rule).

It would attack 1, then 3. The "shortest possible path" rule is only to determine which enemy is the focus. Here, the answer is clearly 1.

The monster in this case has range of 3, so I fail to see why it would prioritize space c and attacking 1 and 3 rather than going to space b and attacking 1 and 2 (in both cases with no disadvantage).

Is that just because 3 is closer to hex c than 2 is to hex b?


I made an error with the previous post. It has been edited.
 
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Dee Wongsa
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Redboots wrote:
This has been an enlightening discussion. Good work, everyone.

dejadee wrote:
The monster would move to c:


c b 3 .
. x .
1 M a 2


This is because a monster will try to 1) lose disadvantage and 2) maximize attacks on secondary targets, in that order. Option c lets it attack its focus without disadvantage, and one secondary target, also without disadvantage (the "maximum effect" rule).

It would attack 1, then 3. The "shortest possible path" rule is only to determine which enemy is the focus. Here, the answer is clearly 1.


The "shortest possible path" is defined as fewest moves to attack. 1 is the focus not because it's closer but because it "wins" the lowest initiative tiebreaker.


Well, the "proximity to current location" tie-breaker is applied first (before looking at initiative). So 1 wins due to that.

I agree, this is a very enlightening movement brain teaser!
 
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Tolis Alex
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dejadee wrote:
Johnorama wrote:
dejadee wrote:
The monster would move to c:


c b 3 .
. x .
1 M a 2


This is because a monster will try to 1) lose disadvantage and 2) maximize attacks on secondary targets, in that order. Option c lets it attack its focus without disadvantage, and one secondary target, also without disadvantage (the "maximum effect" rule).

It would attack 1, then 3. The "shortest possible path" rule is only to determine which enemy is the focus. Here, the answer is clearly 1.

The monster in this case has range of 3, so I fail to see why it would prioritize space c and attacking 1 and 3 rather than going to space b and attacking 1 and 2 (in both cases with no disadvantage).

Is that just because 3 is closer to hex c than 2 is to hex b?


I made an error with the previous post. It has been edited.



It is still wrong. Johnorama is correct
 
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John X
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dejadee wrote:
I agree, this is a very enlightening movement brain teaser!

It coming up in one of our first sessions certainly didn't help us find the game less daunting . I don't even remember what we decided on at the time.

So to summarize I guess, and to make sure my understanding is correct, players decide where the monster goes as long as:
a) it can attack its focus maximally
b) it can attack to maximum effect as many other targets as possible
c) the players' chosen hex is no farther than another hex that would satisfy those conditions.

After the movement satisfies those conditions then the monster will attack its focus and all extra targets it is able to following mostly normal focusing rules (proximity and then initiative on ties) except that it de-prioritizes any attacks with disadvantage.
 
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Dee Wongsa
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Johnorama wrote:
dejadee wrote:
I agree, this is a very enlightening movement brain teaser!

It coming up in one of our first sessions certainly didn't help us find the game less daunting . I don't even remember what we decided on at the time.

So to summarize I guess, and to make sure my understanding is correct, players decide where the monster goes as long as:
a) it can attack its focus maximally
b) it can attack to maximum effect as many other targets as possible
c) the players' chosen hex is no farther than another hex that would satisfy those conditions.

After the movement satisfies those conditions then the monster will attack its focus and all extra targets it is able to following mostly normal focusing rules (proximity and then initiative on ties) except that it de-prioritizes any attacks with disadvantage.


Sorry, I was wrong . I was interpreting the rulebook without checking the FAQ. Here's what the official FAQ has to say:

Gloomhaven Official FAQ wrote:
After a monster prioritizes attacking its focused target (and moving to lose disadvantage), how does it prioritize additional targets when attempting to maximize its attack?
It follows the focus and movement rules to determine it's next target and to maximize its attack on that target without reducing the effectiveness of the attack on the 1st target, then repeating the process for each subsequent target.


So it's:

1) Monster moves to attack its focus (#1) maximally.
2) If there's tie, find the next focus (#2). Try to attack that one maximally without reducing the effectiveness of attacking #1.

You're right, it would move to b and attack 1 & 2.
 
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Trond Roaas
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With multiple targets the monster won't necessarily attack as many as possible - it will attack its primary focus to maximum effect, and then try to attack its focus #2 at maximum effect, then its focus #3 etc. See this example:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27622763#27622763

Edit: So - in the example in this thread it would move to b. And ninja'ed.
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John X
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Ok, so if it's a queued-up list of focuses from the starting position, then in my question 2 it should attack 1 and 3 correct? not 1 and 2?
 
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Tolis Alex
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Johnorama wrote:
Ok, so if it's a queued-up list of focuses from the starting position, then in my question 2 it should attack 1 and 3 correct? not 1 and 2?


Correct
 
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Trond Roaas
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Johnorama wrote:
Ok, so if it's a queued-up list of focuses from the starting position, then in my question 2 it should attack 1 and 3 correct? not 1 and 2?
I believe that tiebreaker is counted from the starting position, so it should be 1 and 3, yes. Haven't seen a definitive ruling, though.
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John X
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tolhs wrote:
Johnorama wrote:
Ok, so if it's a queued-up list of focuses from the starting position, then in my question 2 it should attack 1 and 3 correct? not 1 and 2?


Correct

So a monster with a with a melee AoE "hit everything touching them" attack would rather attack 1 and 2 over 1, 3, 4, and 5?

. 4 5 .
3 . .
. 1 . 2
. M . .

 
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Joseph Cochran
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Johnorama wrote:
dejadee wrote:
I agree, this is a very enlightening movement brain teaser!

It coming up in one of our first sessions certainly didn't help us find the game less daunting . I don't even remember what we decided on at the time.


FWIW, in the long run getting a target or two wrong won’t mess up the game, so people reading this shouldn’t feel too intimidated: as long as you’re trying to honestly interpret the movement and the monsters are getting their attacks in you’ll be fine. Don’t stress in-game about it, just make a quick table rule and worry about dissecting it later.
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Trond Roaas
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Johnorama wrote:

So a monster with a with a melee AoE "hit everything touching them" attack would rather attack 1 and 2 over 1, 3, 4, and 5?

. 4 5 .
3 . .
. 1 . 2
. M . .


Correct.
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Tolis Alex
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Johnorama wrote:
tolhs wrote:
Johnorama wrote:
Ok, so if it's a queued-up list of focuses from the starting position, then in my question 2 it should attack 1 and 3 correct? not 1 and 2?


Correct

So a monster with a with a melee AoE "hit everything touching them" attack would rather attack 1 and 2 over 1, 3, 4, and 5?

. 4 5 .
3 . .
. 1 . 2
. M . .



Unfortunately for them Yes
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Dee Wongsa
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Trondster wrote:
Johnorama wrote:
Ok, so if it's a queued-up list of focuses from the starting position, then in my question 2 it should attack 1 and 3 correct? not 1 and 2?
I believe that tiebreaker is counted from the starting position, so it should be 1 and 3, yes. Haven't seen a definitive ruling, though.


Okay, I'm not sure I agree with this...
In the second scenario, for movement purposes, the monster moves to a because it wants to attack 1 and 3.

Then, when the movement action is done, it attacks its focus. But then it chooses additional targets based on normal focus rules, right? And that gives a different result now that its position has changed?

Maybe I'm overthinking this?
 
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Trond Roaas
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I believe the monster chooses all its targets before moving.
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Chris Willott
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Trondster wrote:
Johnorama wrote:

So a monster with a with a melee AoE "hit everything touching them" attack would rather attack 1 and 2 over 1, 3, 4, and 5?

. 4 5 .
3 . .
. 1 . 2
. M . .


Correct.

I don't think so. From the rulebook:
rulebook wrote:
If it is a multi-target attack, it will move toward a
position where its attack will hit its focused enemy and as many other enemies as possible.

as many other enemies as possible (This in the movement section)
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Tolis Alex
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Willottica wrote:
Trondster wrote:
Johnorama wrote:

So a monster with a with a melee AoE "hit everything touching them" attack would rather attack 1 and 2 over 1, 3, 4, and 5?

. 4 5 .
3 . .
. 1 . 2
. M . .


Correct.

I don't think so. From the rulebook:
rulebook wrote:
Monsters will
always attack their focused enemies (see Monster Focus on pp. 29–30 for details) but if the monster can attack multiple targets, it will attack its focused enemy and as many other enemies as possible to maximum effect.

as many other enemies as possible


To maximum effect
 
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Trond Roaas
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Willottica wrote:

I don't think so. From the rulebook:
rulebook wrote:
If it is a multi-target attack, it will move toward a
position where its attack will hit its focused enemy and as many other enemies as possible.

as many other enemies as possible (This in the movement section)

The FAQ:
Gloomhaven Official FAQ wrote:
After a monster prioritizes attacking its focused target (and moving to lose disadvantage), how does it prioritize additional targets when attempting to maximize its attack?
It follows the focus and movement rules to determine it's next target and to maximize its attack on that target without reducing the effectiveness of the attack on the 1st target, then repeating the process for each subsequent target.


...and this ruling:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27633211#27633211
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Chris Willott
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That's actually in the attack section, but the movement section just says "as many as possible". (I switched it above, because we're talking about where it will move to.)

Regardless, if it's a melee that attacks all adjacent enemies, then maximum effect will be hitting 4 without disadvantage rather than 2.
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