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Subject: Dancing Blade with other items rss

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Gláucio Reis
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My hero has Dancing Blade (free attack every turn against monster on the same tile), Hunter's Bracelet (attack +1) and Belt of Hill Giant Strength (damage +1). From a strict reading of the rules, Dancing Blade is just like any other item used by the hero, and attacks with it should benefit from the other items. Thematically, however, Dancing Blade attacks by itself and shouldn't get those bonuses. Also, I think it makes my hero maybe a bit overpowered (honestly, the belt alone already is very good). But what is the correct rule? Do attacks from the Dancing Blade gain those bonuses?
 
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Alan Stewart
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GSReis wrote:
Do attacks from the Dancing Blade gain those bonuses?
I would assume so. Unless Dancing Blade is an Ally card (don't think it is) then it's just part of your equipment pile. So you would apply the +1 Attack and +1 Damage. Good haul!
 
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A gray area might be an Attack AND Damage bonuses on a SINGLE ATTACK is deliciously greedy (?)

In general terms Attack AND Damage are part of THE SAME "Attack" imho

The Hunter's Bracelet (ATTACK +1) AND Belt of Hill Giant Strength (DAMAGE +1) are both considered "ATTACK" bonus treasure ITEMS perhaps?



pg 13 Rulebook

You can benefit from multiple Treasure cards in play that apply to your Hero.

The only exception to this rule applies to ITEMS that provide an ATTACK or defense bonus.

A Hero can gain only ONE ATTACK BONUS and one defense bonus from ITEMS AT A TIME.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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Collection 1138 wrote:
A Hero can gain only ONE ATTACK BONUS and one defense bonus from ITEMS AT A TIME.

I've always interpreted "attack bonus" literally as a bonus to the attack value (attack +1). I think a damage bonus is just a damage bonus, not an attack bonus. Is that wrong?
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GSReis wrote:
Collection 1138 wrote:
A Hero can gain only ONE ATTACK BONUS and one defense bonus from ITEMS AT A TIME.

I've always interpreted "attack bonus" literally as a bonus to the attack value (attack +1). I think a damage bonus is just a damage bonus, not an attack bonus. Is that wrong?



I'm going to contact WotC Customer Support since they have CR, WoA, LoD and ToEE listed and this rule applies to any of the adventure system games including ToA and they're all in print.

I'll ask them if a Hero can use an attack bonus item and a damage bonus item with the same attack.

Here's my thinking.

Flipping thru all of the CR, WoA, LoD and ToEE Item treasure cards it's rare you'd have attack and damage bonus item cards. most of them are attack bonuses.

The only damage bonus item cards I dug up are WoA Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+1 dmg to adjacent monster) and LoD Belt of Storm Giant Strength (+2 dmg to adjacent monster)

All of the rulebooks Treasure rules 'A Hero can gain only one attack bonus and one defense bonus from items at a time.'

The attack roll modifier & fixed damage on a power card is part of one single Attack action (my words).

Therefore by the rules I think you gain only one of the item bonuses for the 'attack'. damage is part of an 'attack' action so therefore the item bonuses don't stack like we'd like them to (like the D&D RPG game rules most of us are used to for years)

If you have Hunter's Bracelet (attack +1) and Belt of Hill Giant Strength (damage +1) like the original post I'd say by the somewhat vague rules you have to choose one item or the other before making the attack.

But that gets a bit confusing and slows down the game system's relatively fast gameplay imho In the spirit of traditional D&D I'd say use the attack and damage bonuses since it's rare to have the damage bonus items anyhow.


Also one other note items such as wand of acid arrows replace attacks so there are no attack or damage item bonuses stacked on top of those types of item cards.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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Collection 1138 wrote:
The only damage bonus item cards I dug up are WoA Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+1 dmg to adjacent monster) and LoD Belt of Storm Giant Strength (+2 dmg to adjacent monster)

Notice that these items, like the one from ToA, are attire, not weapons, and that is possibly on purpose. You can't attack with two weapons, but it makes sense that strength provided by a belt or gauntlets does not hamper the use of a weapon.

Quote:
The attack roll modifier & fixed damage on a power card is part of one single Attack action (my words).

It obviously is, but that's moot. The relevant rule doesn't refer to attack actions, only to attack bonuses.

Quote:
Also one other note items such as wand of acid arrows replace attacks so there are no attack or damage item bonuses stacked on top of those types of item cards.

I don't think the fact that they use your attack action prevents them from benefiting from bonuses from other items, although it makes sense that a magic wand does not get the attack bonus from some special sword. But that goes back to my original question and reasoning.
 
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Jeffrey
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Using real DnD to fill in what they meant, an Attack Bonus is a bonus to the d20 roll you do to make an attack. A Damage Bonus is a bonus to the damage that is done by the attack. I'm virtually certain that the rules are meant to allow a single attack bonus plus any number of damage bonuses in a single attack.
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Fernando Amaral
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Could you write the exact card text? Perhaps it sheds some light.
 
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I won't claim to have the final answer on your initial post picking out the important parts: "My hero has Dancing Blade (free attack every turn against monster on the same tile), Hunter's Bracelet (attack +1) and Belt of Hill Giant Strength (damage +1)...I think it makes my hero maybe a bit overpowered...Do attacks from the Dancing Blade gain those bonuses?"

I'll wait to see if WotC ever answers the question officially.

Admittedly it is a powerful thematic combo. It's worth thinking about.

But my opinion at this point is:

The Treasure Item rules “A Hero can gain only one Attack bonus and one defense bonus from items at a time."

• I don't think you can use more than one Treasure Item card at a time that AIDS AN ATTACK RESULT during your Hero phase (my caps are just for emphasis)
• No matter what type they are. Attack or damage. Martial-based melee worn bracelets, belts or gauntlets or held sword. Or Arcane-based held wands or staffs. Or any Divine items clerics normally use etc. Those are 4e D&D RPG terms. But that's what these items are.
• You have to choose which ATTACK-RESULT RELATED treasure item card you'll use with your Hero's attack power card prior to rolling the d20 to attack.
• So attack and damage result bonus items can't stack when used during the Hero phase is what the rules don't want you to do without specifying that imho
• Whereas the rules also do allow one defense item used during the different Villain phase when you're attacked
• That makes sense to me in the spirit of the rules

In effect thematically the Hero is wearing Hunter's Bracelet and Belt of Hill Giant Strength. But they both can't activate at the same time. For whatever magical reason. But then again why would a belt grant better damage results. maybe flavor text 'The giant strength pulsates thru your loins from the powerful treasure belt to your weapon frightening every monster on your tile' lol And potentially a Wizard wears one of those if they happen to draw or are given the Treasure cards and gains a benefit in combo with a Magic Missile At-Will Hero power attack. suspension of belief with levity ; ) For the mechanical rules reason it's because the attack-result related items don't stack during the Hero phase imho

You have a relatively rare damage bonus item card. The only Damage treasure items in the game I know of are are in fact worn items: WoA Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+1 dmg to adjacent monster) LoD Belt of Storm Giant Strength (+2 dmg to adjacent monster) and ToA Belt of Hill Giant Strength (+1 dmg to adjacent monster). I don't have ToA so is there other damage bonus treasure item cards?


That segues into the idea of using a treasure item instead of a hero power to attack and then adding one attack item bonus to it or not that came up in our previous posts...

GSReis wrote:
[q="Collection 1138"]

Quote:
Also one other note items such as wand of acid arrows replace attacks so there are no attack or damage item bonuses stacked on top of those types of item cards.

I don't think the fact that they use your attack action prevents them from benefiting from bonuses from other items, although it makes sense that a magic wand does not get the attack bonus from some special sword. But that goes back to my original question and reasoning.


Here’s how I would play this situation:

For example:
• The Wand of Acid Arrows is a Treasure Item card from LoD
• A Treasure Item card can be given once to any Hero after it's drawn from the Treasure deck
• That means any Hero class besides a Wizard can also use it. Which is a thematically a bit odd just like a wizard with a +1 attack item magic sword or +1 gauntlets of ogre power. But within reason mechanically for this fast paced game system ie. If you can pick up a physical treasure item then you can use it.

• The first instructions on the wand's card says ”Use instead of attacking“
a. so it's used in place of your attack action
b. so it qualifies as an Other action in addition to your standard Move action
c. so you can't use your attack, disable trap, unlock door, or move a second time actions if you use this wand item during your Hero phase

• It then says "Attack 1 Monster within 1 tile of your Hero" "Attack +5 | Damage 2" "Flip this card over after use"
• Mechanically I'd say the one treasure item attack (& damage) bonus you can use is built into the wand item card itself with that text
• so the wand is the one attack treasure item bonus you can use

• so (mechanically or less importantly thematically) you can’t stack any other attack results related treasure items on top of the wand item such as a +1 attack item Magic sword or +1 Hunter's bracelet items
• and you can't use any of the few damage bonus item cards such as +1 Belt of Hill Giant Strength based on my unofficial opinion above for your original question

• so the Wand item that replaces your attack action is like a strong Daily Hero Power card but you can't add anything more to because it's a special magical item not a power you possess which can be aided by more magic items

• It makes sense to me after thinking it all thru in way tooo many words ;
• that's the way I'll be playing and see how it goes
• the monsters may thank me for that
• you're gameplay and that of your Heros may vary ;
 
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After all that here's the official answer when I asked wizards of the coast this weekend. They replied today:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast!

I am more than happy to help clarify this question for you. For the Treasure Rules on pg 13, that is suggesting you can only have one attack bonus or one defense bonus.

THE BONUS FOR DAMAGE IN THIS INSTANCE WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AN "ATTACK BONUS" AND THEREFORE WOULD BE ABLE TO BE USED ALONGSIDE AN ATTACK BONUS. (my caps)

Though you may being using more than one bonus for the "attack" the damage bonus is looked at differently.

With that being said, if you ever run into any issues or game rules that do not seem to make sense for your play group, as long as everyone is on the same page, feel free to adjust and apply "House Rules" as needed to enjoy the game to the fullest!

Please let us know if you ever have any further questions or concerns. You can reply to this email or you can call us at the phone number listed below during business hours. We’ll be happy to help as best we can.

Take care and happy gaming!

Mason K.
Customer Service Specialist
Wizards of the Coast
Email Support available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Additional customer support information can be found here
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2305/
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Gláucio Reis
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That's cool, but the thread went on a tangent. Let's not forget that my original question remains without an official answer. I was expecting Kevin Wilson could provide it.
 
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Jeffrey
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As Fernando said, card text would help, but unless the cards are worded in a strange way, you can use all three. For instance, if it one of the cards says "when you attack with a power" it would not work, but it probably doesn't say that.
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Ok sorry I thought the Wotc answer of whether we can use an attack bonus with damage bonus items no matter what hero power you'd use it with.

Yes it'd be nice to get an official designer ruling. I'm surprised he hasn't seen this ridiculously long thread ;

I would say you can also email WizKidz since ToA is their game in the series. However on https://wizkids.com/contact-us/ they have no D&D board game forum!?

I'd agree please type the text of the power and item cards just so everyone knows your specific concern even though we can't answer it. That would have helped right off the bat ; Not everyone has the game (yet) so the official answer would be great to know.

I have all the other games so the tangent that came up closely enough as to whether items can be used on top of other attack items. I'm going to ask WotC I think the answer is no fwiw.


Good luck!!
 
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