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Subject: Advantage: draw null and rolling modifier rss

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Chris Kessel
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I think I just got screwed by a rolling modifier in my deck.

I have advantage, I draw Null and RM Nature. By the rules, it looks like advantage adds the RM Nature to the Null, thus my attack is nullified. Obviously, I'd much rather have any result than my attack being nulled.

Is this the way advantage is supposed to work? Seems like a hole in the logic for handling advantage, where it's worse to have a RM added to your deck.
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J M
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Even with advantage you are not guaranteed to hit. That's the way of it.
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Grey Fox
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Yap. The way advantage interacts with rolling modifiers is just badly thought out IMO. A lot of people, me included, prefer to house rule it so you get two separate stacks and choose the better one.

Here's a recent topic debating the matter.
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1900819/advantage-and-r...
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Yes, advantage works that way according to the rules.

There's other threads where people have discussed house-ruling this in various ways, but rules-as-written that's how it works.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Alcahaelas wrote:
Even with advantage you are not guaranteed to hit. That's the way of it.

when doing a "normal" attack with advantage, you are guaranteed to hit (unless there are curses in your deck, in which case you could draw two curses or a curse and the null)

but once you start delving into the mystical realm of elemental manipulation or other status effects, that reintroduces the chance of failure.
of course, even with a Null or Curse, you still convey any non-damage aspects of the attack (whether they're on the original attack or introduced via the modifier cards)
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John Bruns
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Rolling modifiers are a trade-off. On the plus side, they make regular attacks potentially turn out better. The cost of this is what you observed, that an advantaged attack might turn out null.

Having played a number of classes now, I believe this is a balance issue. Classes that add a lot of rolling modifiers don't benefit from having advantage gear or abilities that give advantage.

If you follow the rules, you will realize that you have a choice to make when adding these cards to your deck, will the benefit outweigh the potential to nerf an advantage draw? Consider that this is a trade off you must choose.

Quite a number of people seem to want to have all the advantages of these rolling modifiers and still guarantee that they will not fail on a attack. One way to accomplish this on within the rules is to use the reduced randomness variant. This would result in a -2 base instead of a miss.
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Scott Burns
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ckessel wrote:
I think I just got screwed by a rolling modifier in my deck.

I have advantage, I draw Null and RM Nature. By the rules, it looks like advantage adds the RM Nature to the Null, thus my attack is nullified. Obviously, I'd much rather have any result than my attack being nulled.

Is this the way advantage is supposed to work? Seems like a hole in the logic for handling advantage, where it's worse to have a RM added to your deck.


Keep in mind though, you still would have missed without advantage. Just as drawing two zero cards means advantage does not help you, with a rolling modifier and a null card, the advantage does not help (but does not hurt either)

Yes having the rolling modifier does hurt you a little in this situation, but it also can help you a little when attacking at disadvantage so it balances out a bit.
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Tobias
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A straightforward house rule is to use the RAW but treat Null as -2 under advantage and x2 as +2 under disadvantage. Another is to completely ignore rolling mods under both advantage and disadvantage. But remember that by the RAW, the rolling mods also help under disadvantage.
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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RAW: ignore all rolling mods under disadvantage.
 
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Alex Kerr
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It's happened to me twice and it kind of annoying but not been debilitating yet. Chances of it costing you the scenario are very slim.

Also this rule lets you crit under disadvantage by drawing a rolling plus x2 making bless a lot better too. If you use a class with lots of rollings then choose cards/items/enhancements with bless instead of strength for better results.

If you want to houserule it I think the cleanest option is to do what was said above and use the 'less random' variant from the rulebook for advantage/disadvantaged attacks only. In practice I don't think it's necessary though.
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Don't forget you can have, in other hand, the good surprise with disavantage : x2 + Roll Attack modifier means x2 even in disavantage
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Tobias
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Morthai wrote:
RAW: ignore all rolling mods under disadvantage.


Are you sure? I don't have theh rules with me right now but I thought that by the RAW if you draw +1 and then rolling, you won't draw another card. That's not what I'd call "ignore". They just don't count. My proposed house rule would be to completely ignore them so draw until you have 2 non-rolling cards and don't count any rolling cards.
 
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MC Crispy
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tal342 wrote:
Rolling modifiers are a trade-off. On the plus side, they make regular attacks potentially turn out better. The cost of this is what you observed, that an advantaged attack might turn out null.

Having played a number of classes now, I believe this is a balance issue. Classes that add a lot of rolling modifiers don't benefit from having advantage gear or abilities that give advantage.

If you follow the rules, you will realize that you have a choice to make when adding these cards to your deck, will the benefit outweigh the potential to nerf an advantage draw? Consider that this is a trade off you must choose.
Or just use the Eagle Eye Goggles (or equivalent) to counter Disadvantage - assuming that you don't consider Disadvantage to be an advantage for a class that has lots of rolling modifiers
 
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Andres K
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This got me confused a bit. Does between under advantage
+1
and
Infuse Fire (rolling) + Null

the last one is better because it has a rolling modifier?
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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therobbot wrote:
Morthai wrote:
RAW: ignore all rolling mods under disadvantage.


Are you sure? I don't have theh rules with me right now but I thought that by the RAW if you draw +1 and then rolling, you won't draw another card. That's not what I'd call "ignore". They just don't count. My proposed house rule would be to completely ignore them so draw until you have 2 non-rolling cards and don't count any rolling cards.

what i meant is yes you use their rolling symbol if you have drawn two but you have to ignore their bonuses they give. Like rolling +1, rolling +1, -1
under disadvantage wound be -1
 
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Andres K
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Morthai wrote:
therobbot wrote:
Morthai wrote:
RAW: ignore all rolling mods under disadvantage.


Are you sure? I don't have theh rules with me right now but I thought that by the RAW if you draw +1 and then rolling, you won't draw another card. That's not what I'd call "ignore". They just don't count. My proposed house rule would be to completely ignore them so draw until you have 2 non-rolling cards and don't count any rolling cards.

what i meant is yes you use their rolling symbol if you have drawn two but you have to ignore their bonuses they give. Like rolling +1, rolling +1, -1
under disadvantage wound be -1

The 2 end rulebook says, that for disadantage if you draw a rolling first, keep drawing until you get a non-rolling card - use only that one.
An attacker with Disadvantage will draw two modifier cards from their deck and use whichever one is worse. ... If two rolling modifier cards
were drawn, continue to draw cards until a rolling modifier is not played
and then only apply the effect of the last card drawn
 
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Jay Johnson
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Wibs wrote:
This got me confused a bit. Does between under advantage
+1
and
Infuse Fire (rolling) + Null

the last one is better because it has a rolling modifier?


When making an advantaged attack, you would draw two cards, and going in the order you list them, the first two would be:
[+1] and [Infuse Fire (rolling)]
Thus you would end up with +1 and infusing fire. You don't draw a third card just because one of the original two had rolling, only if BOTH the original cards had rolling.

The situation that people always gripe about is when an advantaged attack pulls [null (or curse)] and [some rolling modifier card]. The same rule applies and you take both cards, which results in no damage, only doing whatever the rolling modifier adds.
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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Wibs wrote:
Morthai wrote:
therobbot wrote:
Morthai wrote:
RAW: ignore all rolling mods under disadvantage.


Are you sure? I don't have theh rules with me right now but I thought that by the RAW if you draw +1 and then rolling, you won't draw another card. That's not what I'd call "ignore". They just don't count. My proposed house rule would be to completely ignore them so draw until you have 2 non-rolling cards and don't count any rolling cards.

what i meant is yes you use their rolling symbol if you have drawn two but you have to ignore their bonuses they give. Like rolling +1, rolling +1, -1
under disadvantage wound be -1

The 2 end rulebook says, that for disadantage if you draw a rolling first, keep drawing until you get a non-rolling card - use only that one.
An attacker with Disadvantage will draw two modifier cards from their deck and use whichever one is worse. ... If two rolling modifier cards
were drawn, continue to draw cards until a rolling modifier is not played
and then only apply the effect of the last card drawn


Thats excactly what I am saying!
 
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Andres K
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JayJ79 wrote:
Wibs wrote:
This got me confused a bit. Does between under advantage
+1
and
Infuse Fire (rolling) + Null

the last one is better because it has a rolling modifier?


When making an advantaged attack, you would draw two cards, and going in the order you list them, the first two would be:
[+1] and [Infuse Fire (rolling)]
Thus you would end up with +1 and infusing fire. You don't draw a third card just because one of the original two had rolling, only if BOTH the original cards had rolling.

But if the first one is rolling, then I pull the second one based on normal rules, but I don't pull the third one to compare? That's odd.
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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Wibs wrote:

But if the first one is rolling, then I pull the second one based on normal rules, but I don't pull the third one to compare? That's odd.

If your deck is loaded with rolling modifiers, you would draw half of your deck under advantage or disadvantage. To cut short this, the rules in the RAW regarding rolling modifiers were put in place for advantage and disadvantage
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MC Crispy
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Morthai wrote:
Wibs wrote:

But if the first one is rolling, then I pull the second one based on normal rules, but I don't pull the third one to compare? That's odd.

If your deck is loaded with rolling modifiers, you would draw half of your deck under advantage or disadvantage. To cut short this, the rules in the RAW regarding rolling modifiers were put in place for advantage and disadvantage
I've seen a Spellweaver go through pretty much his whole deck when using his "nuke the room" level 9 ability card. A room full of enemies attacked at Advantage. Very Messy. Very. And that's with the rules for Advantage and Rolling Modifiers. (He was not happy with a number of the outcomes either)
 
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Joe Masinter
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house rule, if you prefer you can handle (dis)advantage a different way

draw two separate attacks. rolling modifiers apply to the attack you are drawing from.

then choose which pile to use
for disadvantage, be honest and pick the one you don't want.

ez peasy

sure it is gonna be annoying drawing a roomful of advantaged attacks. so just declare youre handling it one way or another before you start resolving.



 
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Chris Willott
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Why not (for advantage and non) just draw until you have 2 non-rolling modifiers?

For advantage, pick the best non-rolling and all the rolling, for disadvantage pick the worst non-rolling (or the first if ambiguous) and ignore all the rolling modifiers.

This would be the logical extension to the way you handle it without rolling modifiers.

I assume, however, that Isaac deliberately changed the way it works to ensure that the game was better balanced. Your houserule just ignores result of the hundreds of hours that must have gone into playtesting this game.
 
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Dan Baker
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Willottica wrote:
Why not (for advantage and non) just draw until you have 2 non-rolling modifiers?

For advantage, pick the best non-rolling and all the rolling, for disadvantage pick the worst non-rolling (or the first if ambiguous) and ignore all the rolling modifiers.

This would be the logical extension to the way you handle it without rolling modifiers.

I assume, however, that Isaac deliberately changed the way it works to ensure that the game was better balanced. Your houserule just ignores result of the hundreds of hours that must have gone into playtesting this game.


I'd guess that your bold-italic note at the bottom is exactly right. The monster deck, as far as I know, never gets rolling mods, and players seem likely to have more ways to get advantage reliably than the monsters do to force disadvantage, so anything that makes rolling modifiers stronger under advantage and weaker under disadvantage is going to skew toward the players.

Two separate stacks (draw until you hit a non-rolling, then do it again, and compare the first set against the second) seems logical but it would (for decks with lots of rolling modifiers) very often result in ambiguity, which means you get the first stack regardless of what happens (making advantage/disadvantage pointless). If you tightened up the rules on resolving status effects for ambiguity (by specifying exact values for different effects), you might be able to make that work, but it's a lot of added complexity for not much benefit.

Yes, getting your advantaged attack zeroed out because of a card that's supposed to be beneficial is ... weird. But the obvious approaches to fixing it either don't work (two stacks, current ambiguity rules), are clunky as heck (two stacks, effect values are tightly defined to avoid ambiguity), or are probably wildly imbalanced (two normal cards, take the better + all rolling mods).

If you really need to house-rule it, I might suggest trying NULL + rolling under advantage = -2 but ignore rolling mods and x2 + rolling under disadvantage = +2 (unless it was an Attack 1) and rolling mods count. That makes NULL still worse than a regular -2 but not the disaster you were hoping advantage would prevent, and it doesn't raise any more ambiguous situations than it did before. (Double-NULL or double-x2 due to curse/bless should still act normally.) Or if you still want them to have a big effect but not zero everything out completely, make NULL + rolling = half damage (round down) and x2 + rolling = 1.5x (round up) instead under advantage/disadvantage, respectively.

(Our group hasn't added any rolling mods to our decks yet - only 5 scenarios in - so I can't say how annoying we'll find this to be when it happens. But our heavy advantage users right now are both AoE types rather than one-shot killers, so even then, hitting a NULL on one out of three or four shots for the turn won't be nearly as irritating as it would be for, say, the Scoundrel hitting it with Backstab + Smoke Bomb up.)
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Jay Johnson
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dbaker wrote:
[q="Willottica"]Two separate stacks (draw until you hit a non-rolling, then do it again, and compare the first set against the second) seems logical but it would (for decks with lots of rolling modifiers) very often result in ambiguity, which means you get the first stack regardless of what happens (making advantage/disadvantage pointless)

I don't recall seeing any rule saying that in ambiguous situations, you have to take the first option.
 
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