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Subject: Building placement regarding tokens; Spoiler - updated rule 18 rss

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Miranda Folland
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Rule 18 says
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"2. Affix the building sticker in your charter. It can be placed on an empty plot or any building with no tokens on it..."

The rulebook calls all of the following tokens: peril, influence, workers and minions. So am I to understand you cannot place a new building on a building with any of these tokens? It seems incredibly restrictive. You have to clear all peril tokens, workers, and minions off buildings before you can build there? And you can't build over an active income building?

What about Automa? How is the location determined if the appropriate building has a peril token for instance, or a minion? Do buildings with tokens not count then in the determination of a which building to cover?
 
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Israel Waldrom
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Buckets wrote:
Rule 18 says
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"2. Affix the building sticker in your charter. It can be placed on an empty plot or any building with no tokens on it..."

The rulebook calls all of the following tokens: peril, influence, workers and minions. So am I to understand you cannot place a new building on a building with any of these tokens? It seems incredibly restrictive. You have to clear all peril tokens, workers, and minions off buildings before you can build there? And you can't build over an active income building?

What about Automa? How is the location determined if the appropriate building has a peril token for instance, or a minion? Do buildings with tokens not count then in the determination of a which building to cover?


To my understanding that is correct.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Peril tokens are the most inconvenient ones when overbuilding, as you have to remove them first - however if you have taken the glory bonus for a peril token then you can remove the necessary one at the beginning of the game.


Wrt Automa
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I was not 100% sure how to handle that one, as enforcing that rule on them could mean that their placements get really odd, or not at all. As I wanted a semi-functional board I just ignored peril tokens when determining Automa overbuilding, placing the token back on the building once done. The automa overbuilding rule does not make any mention of tokens, so it is a reasonable approach.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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mogust wrote:
Wrt Automa
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I was not 100% sure how to handle that one, as enforcing that rule on them could mean that their placements get really odd, or not at all. As I wanted a semi-functional board I just ignored peril tokens when determining Automa overbuilding, placing the token back on the building once done. The automa overbuilding rule does not make any mention of tokens, so it is a reasonable approach.


Official confirmation: The above is correct.

And thank you, Israel for all your help in answering questions about Charterstone.
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John Mehrholz
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So, once peril tokens are in play, it's impossible to cover over an income building?

Unless we're missing something, there's always going to either be a peril token or an influence token on the space!

This is the kind of 'surprise' screwage that is really pissing off most of the people in my game of this
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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John: Sure, there's a note on the FAQ about this. Also, just a tip, if you ever feel like "screwage" is happening, come to me on a forum like this--or check the FAQ--before the "pissing off" happens. It's easily avoidable through simple communication.

"Income Buildings: When you use an income building, the influence token you pay goes on the building. From then on, whenever the progress token moves onto or over the income icon, you gain the benefit on the income building. It’s tough to build on top of these buildings after peril has been unlocked (you can’t construct over a token), but there is a way to do it: Get the ongoing glory bonus for peril, and at the end of setup, use that bonus to remove the peril token from the income building. Variant: You can construct a building on top of an income building with a peril token, but you must discard the peril token."

https://stonemaiergames.com/games/charterstone/faq/
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Becq
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Can't you also use the building without take the benefit -- by paying the influence (and any other costs), taking the peril token, then choosing not to place the influence that was paid onto the building? My understanding is that that is legal except on "main action" buildings (build/unlock/claim goal)...

Not very efficient, but legal, to my understanding...
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John Mehrholz
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Becq wrote:
Can't you also use the building without take the benefit -- by paying the influence (and any other costs), taking the peril token, then choosing not to place the influence that was paid onto the building? My understanding is that that is legal except on "main action" buildings (build/unlock/claim goal)...

Not very efficient, but legal, to my understanding...


So, what happens to the influence in that case? Do you not have to pay the cost, or what?

We considered that as a possibility, but could find nothing in the rules to support it.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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You have to pay the influence part as normal in that case. It's noted in the FAQ:

https://stonemaiergames.com/games/charterstone/faq/
 
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John Mehrholz
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jameystegmaier wrote:
You have to pay the influence part as normal in that case. It's noted in the FAQ:

https://stonemaiergames.com/games/charterstone/faq/


Not that I can see. Where in the FAQ does it discuss not having to place influence and then what to do with that influence if you don't place it?
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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It's in the "Minor Spoilers" section under "income":

"Income Buildings: When you use an income building, the influence token you pay goes on the building. From then on, whenever the progress token moves onto or over the income icon, you gain the benefit on the income building. It’s tough to build on top of these buildings after peril has been unlocked (you can’t construct over a token), but there is a way to do it: Get the ongoing glory bonus for peril, and at the end of setup, use that bonus to remove the peril token from the income building. Variant: You can construct a building on top of an income building with a peril token, but you must discard the peril token."

Of course, I'm happy to revise that wording if it isn't clear.
 
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David Vestal
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I think the specific procedure for spending the influence token but not placing it, could be clarified - I think the benefit/cost gets a bit muddled in that specific situation.

For example, I think some people could envision the sequence as follows, which would have them not place 1 influence, but not "pay" that influence either:
- Place worker
- Pay cost (e.g. 2 coins)
- Optionally, take benefit (e.g. place 1 influence on the income spot)

Based on the ruling that the influence is still paid, I think the actual sequence would be:
- Place worker
- Pay cost (e.g. 2 coins, 1 influence to general supply)
- Optionally take benefit (e.g. influence from general supply goes to income spot)

As a somewhat related question, the "benefits" are optional, but does that include the income benefits? So placing the influence token on the income spot is optional, but once placed, is taking the benefit when income is triggered also optional? In particular, people might not want to place reputation, triggered by income, if they are low on influence and planning to use it for other actions.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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I just realized I posted the wrong part of the FAQ. Here's the part about the Scroll (also under Minor Spoilers):

"Scrolls (type of Treasure): A scroll can be played (discarded) to avoid paying the cost of a building in your charter when using it. However, if that cost requires the placement of an influence token from your personal supply for the purpose of tracking information (like on an income building or scoring an objective), you must still pay that part of the cost even if you discard a scroll to avoid the rest of the cost."
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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"As a somewhat related question, the "benefits" are optional, but does that include the income benefits? So placing the influence token on the income spot is optional, but once placed, is taking the benefit when income is triggered also optional?"

Yes, income benefits are optional. Placing the influence token on the income spot isn't optional--that's part of the cost.
 
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John Mehrholz
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jameystegmaier wrote:
"As a somewhat related question, the "benefits" are optional, but does that include the income benefits? So placing the influence token on the income spot is optional, but once placed, is taking the benefit when income is triggered also optional?"

Yes, income benefits are optional. Placing the influence token on the income spot isn't optional--that's part of the cost.


That directly contradicts what you said earlier in confirming that Becq was right when she stated the following:

Becq wrote:
Can't you also use the building without take the benefit -- by paying the influence (and any other costs), taking the peril token, then choosing not to place the influence that was paid onto the building?


and then you said:

jameystegmaier wrote:
Becq: You're exactly right!


All of my questions and observations since you agreed with that statement have had to do with that statement. No wonder I can't find it in the FAQ!
 
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Scott Russell
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jameystegmaier wrote:
"As a somewhat related question, the "benefits" are optional, but does that include the income benefits? So placing the influence token on the income spot is optional, but once placed, is taking the benefit when income is triggered also optional?"

Yes, income benefits are optional. Placing the influence token on the income spot isn't optional--that's part of the cost.


Should be consuming the influence token isn't optional (left side of building), but placing it as benefit is optional(right side).

As a further clarification, one could use a treasure to place a worker there (potentially to remove a peril token) without giving up an influence token, but no benefit would be received, right?
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Scott: I think that's closer, but influence is only placed on the right side of income buildings. The other instances of placing an income token to track information are scoring objectives, the quota track, and the reputation track.

As for your question, no, if you don't pay the cost, you can't use the building at all.
 
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Scott Russell
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I'm really confused now.

Income buildings have a cost on the left of an influence token and some combo of other resources.

Earlier, I thought you said that you could put the influence token along with the other resources in the general supply (thus paying the cost on the left side of the building). Then, if you wished, you could put the influence token from the supply on the right side of the card as a benefit (which would allow you to collect the income). But the latter part was optional.

So if you used the treasure that replaces the cost of a building in your charter, it seems like you should be able to "use" the building (to clear peril and/or use the minion's ability) with the treasure, but not play an influence token on the right side.

(Are we agreeing with different words or am I misunderstanding something?)
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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If you use an income building, you must pay the cost from your personal supply. A portion of that cost is 1 influence token, and that token must go on the income building (on the right side with the benefit).

If you use the "no-cost" treasure, it does not exempt you from spending the influence token from your personal supply and putting it on the income building.
 
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Scott Russell
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jameystegmaier wrote:


If you use the "no-cost" treasure, it does not exempt you from spending the influence token from your personal supply and putting it on the income building.


But can I use the treasure to place a minion and not play an influence token on the building?

Edit: to do the same action that Becq outlined above, but with a treasure card rather than with the actual cost.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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You MUST pay the cost if you place a worker on a building. Otherwise you cannot place a worker on the building, even if you're just there to get a peril token.
 
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Scott Russell
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jameystegmaier wrote:
You MUST pay the cost if you place a worker on a building. Otherwise you cannot place a worker on the building, even if you're just there to get a peril token.


I get that (I think), but the treasure "pays" the cost generally.

But for income buildings, you're saying that you would have to play an influence marker with the treasure even if you don't put the influence on the building, but instead put it in the supply? It seems inconsistent, but we'll play it the way you rule.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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"But for income buildings, you're saying that you would have to play an influence marker with the treasure even if you don't put the influence on the building, but instead put it in the supply?"

No, I'm saying this: "If you use the "no-cost" treasure, it does not exempt you from spending the influence token from your personal supply and putting it on the income building."

No matter what, if you place a worker on an income building, you must pay the influence cost, and that cost means you take an influence from your personal supply and place it on the income building.
 
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Scott Russell
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Becq wrote:
Can't you also use the building without take the benefit -- by paying the influence (and any other costs), taking the peril token, then choosing not to place the influence that was paid onto the building? My understanding is that that is legal except on "main action" buildings (build/unlock/claim goal)...

Not very efficient, but legal, to my understanding...


To which you said:

"Becq: You're exactly right!"

So must one place the paid influence marker on the income building or is it optional?

If optional, then why does the treasure not completely pay the cost, if the player chooses not to place the (virtual) influence marker?

Thanks for your patience, Jamey, I am feeling really dense right now.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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I understand your confusion. I've deleted my previous comment to Becq's comment, as it was incorrect.
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Scott Russell
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Cool, I understand now, thanks!
 
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