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Subject: Multiple activations of a single thruster in a turn? rss

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Blacker Jack
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My friend and I are trying to learn the basic game and we've come to different conclusions about how activating thrusters work. We both agree on the following based on reading the living rules:

- Only a single thruster can be used on a turn.
- Thrust Movement Points (TMPs) can never exceed net thrust.

However, we disagree on whether or not a single thruster can be "activated" (for lack of a better term) multiple times within a single turn. For example, can you activate a thruster to gain TMPs equal to net thrust, spend those TMPs in burns, and then activate that same thruster again? He claims no, citing, "During its move, each rocket (including sails) is limited to a number of thrust movement points (TMPs) equal to its net thrust (F2)." I claim yes, because if what he said is true, fractional fuel consumption thrusters would be pointless unless they could be activated repeatedly on a single turn (as they "round up" their fuel consumption; "If using a thruster with fractional fuel consumption, you can use any fractional fuel remaining from a burn for subsequent burns during the same move but round the fuel remaining at the end of the move to the left if a fuel step remains partially used.")

So, what are the rules on this?
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Dave Bailey
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Not quite sure what you mean by activated.

Your net thrust gives you your TMP. Your TMP is the number of burns you can do with that thruster this turn.

The cost of the burn in fuel steps is in the thruster triangle. A step can be a partial fuel tank, especially at the lighter wet masses.

Do you mean that each burn is "activating" the thruster?

Cheers,

Dave
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The rules are (paraphrasing from memory):

1. A rocket can only move once per turn. (More generally, any piece on the board or card can only move once per turn.)

2. No actions can be performed during movement (except jettison or make outpost). So, once you start moving, you have to finish it. Note that you cannot make U-turns and landing always terminates your movement.

Fractional fuel consumption makes sense because you can enter multiple burns during a single move. Each burn you enter costs you a fuel consumption. So, if your fuel consumption is 1/4, and you enter 4 burns, you pay one fuel step at the end of your movement. If you enter 5 burns, you round up and pay 2 fuel steps.
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Blacker Jack
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Stormkahn wrote:
Not quite sure what you mean by activated.

Your net thrust gives you your TMP. Your TMP is the number of burns you can do with that thruster this turn.

The cost of the burn in fuel steps is in the thruster triangle. A step can be a partial fuel tank, especially at the lighter wet masses.

Do you mean that each burn is "activating" the thruster?

Cheers,

Dave


Sorry for the confusion. By 'activating' I mean converting the fuel cost (in the thrust triangle) into TMP. This is different from burns, in that one 'activation' may give you enough thrust (TMPs) to perform (pass through or turn through) several burns. This is covered in the living rules under "F1. Activate Thruster" and overall in the "F. Rocket Movement Procedure" sections in the living rules.

rbelikov wrote:
The rules are (paraphrasing from memory):

1. A rocket can only move once per turn. (More generally, any piece on the board or card can only move once per turn.)

2. No actions can be performed during movement (except jettison or make outpost). So, once you start moving, you have to finish it. Note that you cannot make U-turns and landing always terminates your movement.

Fractional fuel consumption makes sense because you can enter multiple burns during a single move. Each burn you enter costs you a fuel consumption. So, if your fuel consumption is 1/4, and you enter 4 burns, you pay one fuel step at the end of your movement. If you enter 5 burns, you round up and pay 2 fuel steps.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. If the net thrust of my rocket is 1, and my fuel consumption is 1/4 (AKA 0.25), I can use two "steps" of fuel (black line) to move up to 8 spaces (total fuel consumed / fuel per activation * net thrust; or 2 / 0.25 * 1 = 8). This is, in the vernacular I've been using, 8 "activations" of that engine for 1 thrust each time. However, that engine cannot be used to ever land on anything as you need >1 net thrust to land on even the smallest things (minimum site size is 1), unless there is an increase in net thrust at some point.

This would make my interpretation of the rules is then correct and not my friend's. If that is the case, then does one recompute wet mass between each activation of the thruster? EDIT: It seems that it is not recalculated, "Even if a rocket sheds mass (cards) during a turn, its net thrust depends on its state before its starts moving."
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Francisco Colmenares
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If you have a net thrust of 1 you can only enter 1 burn. Fractional fuel thrusters aren’t pointless, it just depends on weight class and afterburning. For a thruster that is 3 * 1/3 for example if your weight class is zero you would have 3 TMPs allowing you to move three burns. If you move through three burns you would pay 1/3 of a step through each burn for a total of 1 step of fuel. After totaling your fuel consumption for the entire move then you would round up. This just means that for such a thruster moving 1-3 burns costs the same amount of fuel.

Another example is the ion thruster which 2 * 1/2. That one allows you to move two burns for the cost of just 1 step of fuel. But if you just one burn it still costs 1 step of fuel. But you still can’t move more than 2 burns in one move barring other modifiers.
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Geoff Speare
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blackerjack wrote:
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. If the net thrust of my rocket is 1, and my fuel consumption is 1/4 (AKA 0.25), I can use two "steps" of fuel (black line) to move up to 8 spaces (total fuel consumed / fuel per activation * net thrust; or 2 / 0.25 * 1 = 8). This is, in the vernacular I've been using, 8 "activations" of that engine for 1 thrust each time. However, that engine cannot be used to ever land on anything as you need >1 net thrust to land on even the smallest things (minimum site size is 1), unless there is an increase in net thrust at some point.


You only get your TMP once per turn. A net thrust 1, fuel consumption 1/4 rocket gets one burn a turn which will use up a step of fuel (0.25 rounded up). If that rocket had net thrust of 4 then it could do four burns for one step of fuel.

What you define as "activations" are not allowed - you get to calculate TMP once per turn.
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Blacker Jack
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galfridus wrote:
You only get your TMP once per turn. A net thrust 1, fuel consumption 1/4 rocket gets one burn a turn which will use up a step of fuel (0.25 rounded up).

I guess I just don't understand then. What is the point of a 1/4 rocket if you can always only do a single activation, and that will always be rounded up to 1? Shouldn't the card just say "1" for the fuel then?

Edit: Oh, I guess you can activate fractional thrusters multiple times, but only until they consume a full unit of fuel, whereas other thrusters (those that take 1 or more fuel per activation) can only be used once. This is really not clearly explained in the rules...
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Matt Watkins
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blackerjack wrote:
galfridus wrote:
You only get your TMP once per turn. A net thrust 1, fuel consumption 1/4 rocket gets one burn a turn which will use up a step of fuel (0.25 rounded up).

I guess I just don't understand then. What is the point of a 1/4 rocket if you can always only do a single activation, and that will always be rounded up to 1? Shouldn't the card just say "1" for the fuel then?


If you have 4 TMP at the start of your turn, you can enter 4 burns at a cost of 1/4 fuel step each for a total of 1 fuel step. But if you only have 1 TMP, you can only enter 1 burn during that turn at a total cost of 1/4 fuel step, which gets rounded up to 1 fuel step at the end of your turn. With a fuel efficiency of 1/4, it costs the same to enter 1, 2, 3, or 4 burns in a turn.

TMP = the maximum number of burns you can enter in a turn, and you calculate this before moving
fuel efficiency = fuel step cost per burn, which you tally as you go and round up at the end of your move

"Activating" a thruster means selecting it as the thruster you'll use to move your rocket. Rockets can have more than one thruster, but you can only "activate" one at a time. It has nothing to do with burning fuel or determining thrust.

Check out this thread for an example of movement. It doesn't have fractional fuel consumption, but it shows how movement works in a way that may help you understand what's happening.
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Geoff Speare
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blackerjack wrote:
What is the point of a 1/4 rocket if you can always only do a single activation, and that will always be rounded up to 1? Shouldn't the card just say "1" for the fuel then?

Edit: Oh, I guess you can activate fractional thrusters multiple times, but only until they consume a full unit of fuel, whereas other thrusters (those that take 1 or more fuel per activation) can only be used once.


You can use any rocket a number of times equal to your TMP (which is net thrust modified as described in the rules). A rocket with net thrust 3 and fuel consumption 4 could do 3 burns, requiring 12 fuel steps.

Quote:
This is really not clearly explained in the rules...


They are not the easiest rules in the world to comprehend, that's for sure. Don't forget to read the glossary!
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Aaron
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Try reading through these two threads that walk through examples of movement and industrialization.
 
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Bendik Vedeler
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blackerjack wrote:
Sorry for the confusion. By 'activating' I mean converting the fuel cost (in the thrust triangle) into TMP. This is different from burns, in that one 'activation' may give you enough thrust (TMPs) to perform (pass through or turn through) several burns. This is covered in the living rules under "F1. Activate Thruster" and overall in the "F. Rocket Movement Procedure" sections in the living rules.


No, that's not how it works. Your net thrust gives you your TMP, you don't have to pay fuel to gain these, or to move with your rocket.
However, whenever you perform a burn (by entering a burn space or doing a pivot) you must pay the fuel-cost of the thruster for each burn.

For instance, if you have a 5-1 thruster (with no other bonuses to thrust) you can perform 5 burns during your move, and each burn costs 1 fuel. Performing 4 burns with this thrust would then cost you 4 steps of fuel on the fuel-track.

If you have a 5-0.5 thruster each burn would only cost half a step, and performing 4 burns would then cost you 2 steps of fuel (if you only do 1 burn then the cost would be 1*0.5 = 0.5, rounded up to 1, but if you do 2 burns the cost would be 2*0.5 = 1).
 
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