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Subject: Why would you ever score milk and wheat at end game? rss

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Ian Noble
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It seems to me that there is no reason (outside of Clan abilities which we didn't play with) to need to score milk or wheat at end game. Every player should just convert those during the final production phase.

Just making sure I'm not missing something subtle when it comes to converting basic resources.
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brian
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ianoble wrote:
It seems to me that there is no reason (outside of Clan abilities which we didn't play with) to need to score milk or wheat at end game. Every player should just convert those during the final production phase.

Just making sure I'm not missing something subtle when it comes to converting basic resources.

Because if you don't have a dairy or a bakery/distillery - or enough of either - you will be left with additional Milk and Wheat that you can't convert.

So yes, if you have the means, convert to get that extra VP. But if you don't, they are still worth something.
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Daniel King
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It's possible that you have put a cow down, but don't have a factory for making cheese. Or that you have placed more fields than you have factories for converting wheat. I'm not saying it's optimal, but there are plenty of reasons why you might have milk or wheat at the end of the game.
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James Mathias
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ianoble wrote:
It seems to me that there is no reason (outside of Clan abilities which we didn't play with) to need to score milk or wheat at end game. Every player should just convert those during the final production phase.

Just making sure I'm not missing something subtle when it comes to converting basic resources.


Coverting is probably better in general, but you can only convert at a 1:1 ratio. So if you have 4 milk, and only two dairies, you will have 2 leftover milk to score. Thus 2 points is better than 0 points in those cases.
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brian
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ianoble wrote:
Just making sure I'm not missing something subtle when it comes to converting basic resources.

To address this, you do understand that you can only convert as many Milk into Cheese as you have Dairies, correct? Same with wheat getting converted to bread or whisky.

In other words, if you have 4 cattle on the board you will produce 4 milk. But if you only have 1 Dairy on the board, only one Milk can be converted to Cheese per round, including the final round.
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Julien Grenier
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You need enough factories to convert them all. You might end up with more milk than you can convert. ninja
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mfl134
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ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
You need enough factories to convert them all. You might end up with more milk than you can convert. ninja


This is definitely a rule that I saw others struggle with when learning this game.
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Chris
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
ianoble wrote:
Just making sure I'm not missing something subtle when it comes to converting basic resources.

To address this, you do understand that you can only convert as many Milk into Cheese as you have Dairies, correct? Same with wheat getting converted to bread or whisky.

In other words, if you have 4 cattle on the board you will produce 4 milk. But if you only have 1 Dairy on the board, only one Milk can be converted to Cheese per round, including the final round.


Heh - I did not realize this but it makes sense. I thought the dairy and distillery just made cheese and barrels. Needing the raw food from a cow or grain does make sense tho!
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brian
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mfl134 wrote:
ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
You need enough factories to convert them all. You might end up with more milk than you can convert. ninja


This is definitely a rule that I saw others struggle with when learning this game.

Agreed. I missed this until the first half turn of our first game as well. The game is pretty good about visual cues to remind you of the rules. There is the "<<" and ">>" to remind you but they are somewhat buried unless you get 2 or 3 of the respective pieces down to see them. I wish they had put them closer to the top of the player board.
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Ian Noble
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Nope!! But now I know.

ColtsFan76 wrote:
ianoble wrote:
Just making sure I'm not missing something subtle when it comes to converting basic resources.

To address this, you do understand that you can only convert as many Milk into Cheese as you have Dairies, correct? Same with wheat getting converted to bread or whisky.

In other words, if you have 4 cattle on the board you will produce 4 milk. But if you only have 1 Dairy on the board, only one Milk can be converted to Cheese per round, including the final round.
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Matthew Burgess
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Out of curiosity - Why were you not playing with Clan abilities??
 
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Ian Noble
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mattpburgess wrote:
Out of curiosity - Why were you not playing with Clan abilities??


The rulebook recommends not playing with those for the first game. 4 players all learning the game. Took 3 hours. Glad it wasn't longer.
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Sergio Perez
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mfl134 wrote:
ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
You need enough factories to convert them all. You might end up with more milk than you can convert. ninja


This is definitely a rule that I saw others struggle with when learning this game.


Yup, and missing it fundamentally changes the game.
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alan beaumont
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
You need enough factories to convert them all. You might end up with more milk than you can convert. ninja
This is definitely a rule that I saw others struggle with when learning this game.

Agreed. I missed this until the first half turn of our first game as well. The game is pretty good about visual cues to remind you of the rules. There is the "<<" and ">>" to remind you but they are somewhat buried unless you get 2 or 3 of the respective pieces down to see them. I wish they had put them closer to the top of the player board.
You don't need any clues if you bother to read the rules, eg:

"Each cheese dairy may process one milk into one cheese"

And in the paragraph below:

"The Basic goods spent to produce the Processed goods can come from anywhere: including received during the current production phase, a previous production phase, purchased from the Market on a previous turn, etc." p7 Phase 3: Production

There are even some pretty pictures showing this to confirm it.


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Ian Noble
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misteralan wrote:
You don't need any clues if you bother to read the rules, eg:

"Each cheese dairy may process one milk into one cheese"

And in the paragraph below:

"The Basic goods spent to produce the Processed goods can come from anywhere: including received during the current production phase, a previous production phase, purchased from the Market on a previous turn, etc." p7 Phase 3: Production

There are even some pretty pictures showing this to confirm it.


I think all of us "bothered" to read the rules, dude. Thanks for the reference, though.
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mfl134
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ianoble wrote:
misteralan wrote:
You don't need any clues if you bother to read the rules, eg:

"Each cheese dairy may process one milk into one cheese"

And in the paragraph below:

"The Basic goods spent to produce the Processed goods can come from anywhere: including received during the current production phase, a previous production phase, purchased from the Market on a previous turn, etc." p7 Phase 3: Production

There are even some pretty pictures showing this to confirm it.


I think all of us "bothered" to read the rules, dude. Thanks for the reference, though.


I think that most people who have played the game didn't actually read the rules, likely learned it from the Gaming-Rules video or learned it from somebody else.
 
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Ian Noble
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mfl134 wrote:
ianoble wrote:
misteralan wrote:
You don't need any clues if you bother to read the rules, eg:

"Each cheese dairy may process one milk into one cheese"

And in the paragraph below:

"The Basic goods spent to produce the Processed goods can come from anywhere: including received during the current production phase, a previous production phase, purchased from the Market on a previous turn, etc." p7 Phase 3: Production

There are even some pretty pictures showing this to confirm it.


I think all of us "bothered" to read the rules, dude. Thanks for the reference, though.


I think that most people who have played the game didn't actually read the rules, likely learned it from the Gaming-Rules video or learned it from somebody else.


Not trying to derail the thread too much, but if you're posting in a rules forum post, I would think you're the one that read the rules. Most players probably learned from someone else but they wouldn't be responding to rules questions.

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brian
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misteralan wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
You need enough factories to convert them all. You might end up with more milk than you can convert. ninja
This is definitely a rule that I saw others struggle with when learning this game.

Agreed. I missed this until the first half turn of our first game as well. The game is pretty good about visual cues to remind you of the rules. There is the "<<" and ">>" to remind you but they are somewhat buried unless you get 2 or 3 of the respective pieces down to see them. I wish they had put them closer to the top of the player board.
You don't need any clues if you bother to read the rules, eg:

"Each cheese dairy may process one milk into one cheese"

And in the paragraph below:

"The Basic goods spent to produce the Processed goods can come from anywhere: including received during the current production phase, a previous production phase, purchased from the Market on a previous turn, etc." p7 Phase 3: Production

There are even some pretty pictures showing this to confirm it.



Thanks for the condescension. I read the rules. I was the one who taught it. I "forgot" about the conversion until half way through the first turn when I realized I forgot about that aspect and had to let everyone know before we got into production.

This isn't a hard game but there are a lot of things going on. And to remember them all when explaining to all new people.

And I said the in game graphics were cues to remind you, though this one was in a spot that was hard to see and maybe not so clear as the others.
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alan beaumont
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Thanks for the condescension. I read the rules. I was the one who taught it. I "forgot" about the conversion until half way through the first turn when I realized I forgot about that aspect and had to let everyone know before we got into production.
Perhaps I should have said if you'd read the rules out then, which would have precluded forgetting. The production section ones are after all barely two paragraphs.

I was taught the game verbally and only went to the rules to see if there was an issue (having rushed out to buy my own). I'd forgotten about the display arrows, which did come in handy first game to remind that wheat has two possible products.
 
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brian
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misteralan wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Thanks for the condescension. I read the rules. I was the one who taught it. I "forgot" about the conversion until half way through the first turn when I realized I forgot about that aspect and had to let everyone know before we got into production.
Perhaps I should have said if you'd read the rules out then, which would have precluded forgetting. The production section ones are after all barely two paragraphs.

I was taught the game verbally and only went to the rules to see if there was an issue (having rushed out to buy my own). I'd forgotten about the display arrows, which did come in handy first game to remind that wheat has two possible products.

Hindsight is always 20/20. If I knew what rule I was going to forget, I wouldn't have forgotten it. So yeah, maybe it is only 2 paragraphs, but 2 paragraphs among several pages.

But it is obviously a sticking point as a couple people in this thread alone overlooked it. It's not that hard to see that it can be overlooked when all the other pieces produce directly or give income.

And my 2nd game, where I made sure it was included, and showed them the arrows, I still had one guy that couldn't grasp this concept all game long. By the 5th round all 3 of us were telling him how it worked yet again.
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Graham Charlton
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Do you even need to read the rules for this one?

I understand complex stuff would simply be guesswork without reading the rules, but it's a game about producing goods. You have cows. You have cheese dairies. Anyone who's played more than a couple of other games is going to immediately make the leap to "milk converts to cheese" surely? It's just obvious. You'd need better reminder iconography if that wasn't true rather than the way the game actually works.
 
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brian
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RandomGraham wrote:
Do you even need to read the rules for this one?

I understand complex stuff would simply be guesswork without reading the rules, but it's a game about producing goods. You have cows. You have cheese dairies. Anyone who's played more than a couple of other games is going to immediately make the leap to "milk converts to cheese" surely? It's just obvious. You'd need better reminder iconography if that wasn't true rather than the way the game actually works.

You also have things that produce straight up. I mean, I am no farmer but milk doesn't just magically appear and sheep don't shear themselves, and if they could, don't have the thumbs to roll them up into nice little balls. Yet the game doesn't go into that level of detail.

The logic is that "If I built a dairy, then I am already getting what I need to make the cheese, so I should start making cheese."

I am not even sure why we are debating this. People have missed the rule, we are helping them see it. The rest just seems insulting.
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Scott Hill
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People forget things. Mistakes get made. And none of us are perfect.

I myself forgot that you need the basic resource producers out, in order to produce the advanced resources, during the entire first round of my First Play video.

Of course I remembered as soon as I got to the first round production phase, and kicked myself for making such a basic error.

But these things happen.

Let’s not be condescending and look down on those that get rules wrong.

We’ve all done it.
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mfl134
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
People forget things. Mistakes get made. And none of us are perfect.

I myself forgot that you need the basic resource producers out, in order to produce the advanced resources, during the entire first round of my First Play video.


This isn't completely true. You can buy the primary resources and convert them using your secondary resource buildings.
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Scott Hill
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mfl134 wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
People forget things. Mistakes get made. And none of us are perfect.

I myself forgot that you need the basic resource producers out, in order to produce the advanced resources, during the entire first round of my First Play video.


This isn't completely true. You can buy the primary resources and convert them using your secondary resource buildings.

True.
 
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