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Subject: Obama, Iran, and Hizb'alla rss

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Moshe Callen
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-said-to-have-derailed-ca...

Can we hear more claptrap about how this was the best possible deal and the only alternative was massive war? Oh wait, I'm supposed to pretend the Iran nuclear deal was good unless I can magically present an alternative I know Iran would agree to without being privy to the negotiations.

EDIT:
I thought I'd pasted the news link but it was a FB link. Corrected.
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Re: Obama, Iran, and Izb'alla
Thanks. I'd not noticed it wasn't the link I thought. The short version is that the deal was partially paid for my allowing Hizb'alla-- an Iranian proxy terrorist group-- to sell drugs in the US and worldwide.
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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Re: Obama, Iran, and Izb'alla
whac3 wrote:


Can we hear more claptrap about how this was the best possible deal and the only alternative was massive war? Oh wait, I'm supposed to pretend the Iran nuclear deal was good unless I can magically present an alternative I know Iran would agree to without being privy to the negotiations.


I have trouble believing that Obama would interfere with a drug investigation of terrorists. I am reserving judgement until I read Obama's response. If the Obama administration actually did this, they chose a bad means to a good ends.

Because of the Iran deal, Iran will not be able to threaten Israel or anyone else with nuclear weapons for at least 10 years, possibly much longer. And yes, if you want your claim that the Iran deal was bad to be taken seriously, you do need to say what you would have done instead.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Had I been speaking for the US etc., I'd have done nothing until and unless a better deal were made. It's not glamorous but it was the better course of action.

EDIT:
"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war. It guarantees it. Iran took it as a green light for their regional ambitions and everyone else in the region-- everyone-- took it the same way.

Of course I'm sure you Americans know better.
 
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Daniel Edwards
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The actual article is on the Politico front page.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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whac3 wrote:
Thanks. I'd not noticed it wasn't the link I thought. The short version is that the deal was partially paid for my allowing Hizb'alla-- an Iranian proxy terrorist group-- to sell drugs in the US and worldwide.


Short and deceptive. The article doesn’t even allege that the reduction in staffing for enforcement against Hezbollah was mentioned in negotiations. All it claims is that the Obama administration, in an attempt to protect the deal they were making, put those resources to other uses.

But I like that nobody is even claiming yet that the real story is who is leaking this to the press, and that that’s what we need to investigate. I don’t mind a little consideration of the quality of evidence and the motives of those who bring it to public attention, but the suggestion that only the leaking matters is a crap play I’d like to remain the sole province of Republicans.
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J
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whac3 wrote:

"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war.

You left out the important part: not threaten with nukes. The deal was not supposed to stop war, it was supposed to keep them from getting nukes.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:

"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war.

You left out the important part: not threaten with nukes. The deal was not supposed to stop war, it was supposed to keep them from getting nukes.

No, it promised they could get them in 10 years.
 
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whac3 wrote:

Of course I'm sure you Americans know better.


Now I'm no fan of American interference in the Middle East, but if you don't like their heavy-handed paternalism, you can always give back the $38billion in military aid they've agreed to give Israel over the next ten years.

All that $$$ and they brokered an anti-nuke deal with your enemies, whom Netanyahu was proposing air strikes against, possibly to distract from his many corruption scandals at home?

Not only all that, but America routinely pretends that Israel has no nukes so that it doesn't have to impose sanctions for non-adherence to US non-proliferation laws, a position that undermines it's authority on non-proliferation across the globe, but one it still adopts, as a favour to Israel.

What more do you want from them? Air strikes? A war?
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Of course I'm sure you Americans know better.


Now I'm no fan of American interference in the Middle East, but if you don't like their heavy-handed paternalism, you can always give back the $38billion in military aid they've agreed to give Israel over the next ten years.

All that $$$ and they brokered an anti-nuke deal with your enemies, whom Netanyahu was proposing air strikes against, possibly to distract from his many corruption scandals at home?

It pains me, but I'm going to suggest this time the Yanks may have called it correctly.

I'd love to cut military ties with the US but that military aid btw is quid pro quo. It's a defense industry slush fund. Israel is foreost in designing tech we don't have the facilities to produce in mass. We allow the US to do so and in exchange spend the money the US gives us plus some of our own on what is built. So cut the crap.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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whac3 wrote:
jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:

"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war.

You left out the important part: not threaten with nukes. The deal was not supposed to stop war, it was supposed to keep them from getting nukes.

No, it promised they could get them in 10 years.


This appears to be false. Do you have a source for that understanding, or an argument of your own for why it’s true?
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whac3 wrote:
jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:

"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war.

You left out the important part: not threaten with nukes. The deal was not supposed to stop war, it was supposed to keep them from getting nukes.

No, it promised they could get them in 10 years.

Well at least we agree that it wasn’t supposed to stop a war. As such, why are you using that as a point against the deal?

Also weren’t they supposed to have nukes by now?
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Moshe Callen
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My understanding was that w don't know where in the development they are and so they might have had nukes by now i they can gt the uranium.
 
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Mac Mcleod
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jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:

"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war.

You left out the important part: not threaten with nukes. The deal was not supposed to stop war, it was supposed to keep them from getting nukes.


It was supposed to delay them from gaining nuclear bombs. Hopefully for as long as the deal, but at least some even if the deal later failed.

I think it was successful in that regard.
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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whac3 wrote:
Had I been speaking for the US etc., I'd have done nothing until and unless a better deal were made. It's not glamorous but it was the better course of action.

EDIT:
"Won't be able to threaten [us]?" You believe that rot? It put them on their current path. The deal did not stop war. It guarantees it. Iran took it as a green light for their regional ambitions and everyone else in the region-- everyone-- took it the same way.

Of course I'm sure you Americans know better.


Thank you for answering my question honestly and quickly.

In my opinion, the US doing nothing (in other words, not taking the deal) would not have worked out well. Europe was in favor of the deal, and they would have considered a unilateral rejection by the US as unreasonable. The sanctions would have fallen apart, and and with it the pressure on Iran. Iran might even have a nuclear weapon by now, and Europe would blame the US for this. Rightly, in my opinion.

Moshe, isn't it true that many retired Israeli military people supported the deal?
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Mac Mcleod
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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.812473
Quote:
Netanyahu at Odds With Israeli Military and Intelligence Brass Over Whether to Push Trump to Scrap Iran Nuclear Deal

Netanyahu and his defense minister believe that the U.S. leaving the deal would be in Israel's interests, but experts in intelligence agencies have reservations
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In September of 2012, Netanyahu told the U.N. that Iran’s capability to enrich uranium had to be stopped before the next spring or early summer, else by that time the country would be in a position to make a short, perhaps undetectable, sprint to manufacture its first nuclear weapon.

He famously used a Wyley Coyote bomb graphic to make this point.

We are well past that timeline and Iran doesn’t have a nuke.
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Wendell
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Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
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This thread (click thru for whole thing) shreds the Politico article.
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