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1830: Railways & Robber Barons» Forums » Rules

Subject: Track tiles limit rss

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Wojtek Makarewicz
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In 1846 the rules state: "The number and types of available tiles limits
what may be laid, with the exception of the yellow basic track
tiles: #7, #8, and #9 (which are unlimited)."
Is it the same in 1830 or there are limits on every single type of track including yellow basic tracks?
 
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Roel van der Hoorn
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All are limited in 1830.
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J C Lawrence
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Few (only three come to mind) 18xx don't limit their track tile roster.
 
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Wojtek Makarewicz
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Wow! Isn't that too gamey? It felt really odd and punishing when my railroad couldn't finish a connection just because there was no basic tile available... I mean there are not that much of these basic tiles in the mix.
 
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JR
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adalbert wrote:
Wow! Isn't that too gamey? It felt really odd and punishing when my railroad couldn't finish a connection just because there was no basic tile available... I mean there are not that much of these basic tiles in the mix.


If you require a thematic explanation, consider it an abstraction for any number of real life situations such as: land owner refuses to sell, purchased land ends up being unsuitable to support railroad infrastructure, and so on and so forth.
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Dave Eisen
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Someone will no doubt come by and explain how it works thematically given the time period.

That said, this is a game, not a simulation. The tile mix as provided provides a good game experience with interesting decisions. Up to you whether or not you consider it too gamey. I don't have a problem with it.

And yes. Punishing. You have to be aware of the tile mix and it is worth learning it, if you want to take this title seriously.
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J C Lawrence
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adalbert wrote:
Wow! Isn't that too gamey?


You ask this about a 30+ year old title which is frequently played and widely admired? That alone would suggest not.

Quote:
It felt really odd and punishing when my railroad couldn't finish a connection just because there was no basic tile available... I mean there are not that much of these basic tiles in the mix.


You may find this article useful.
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Wojtek Makarewicz
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My first 18xx being 1846 which I played a couple of times I kind of assumed that you just can't run out of basic type tiles and paid no attention to that aspect of the game (in fact, as we all started with 1846, probably none of us did until I got hit by the limit). Oh, well.
Anyway, thanks.
 
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Pas L
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jrebelo wrote:
adalbert wrote:
Wow! Isn't that too gamey? It felt really odd and punishing when my railroad couldn't finish a connection just because there was no basic tile available... I mean there are not that much of these basic tiles in the mix.


If you require a thematic explanation, consider it an abstraction for any number of real life situations such as: land owner refuses to sell, purchased land ends up being unsuitable to support railroad infrastructure, and so on and so forth.


This has always struck me as a poor way to reason these things. It's a really awkward stretch to say that because someone else just built a certain kind of track halfway across the country a local owner has decided to not let you build on their land. It would require that local owner to have seen the news about the other specific rail construction and then decide "oh well, if only they hadn't done that I would have been fine selling, now though - NEVER!"

It's super gamey, and it doesn't matter. It's a game. It's interesting. I don't see why you need anything else.

I personally enjoy games that as as simple as possible, and would love it if 18xx games could be as much fun without the chrome of track tiles. But they can't, so the balance of game playing pleasure forgives their 'gamey-ness' and moves on.
 
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Roel van der Hoorn
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lamaros wrote:
I personally enjoy games that as as simple as possible, and would love it if 18xx games could be as much fun without the chrome of track tiles. But they can't, so the balance of game playing pleasure forgives their 'gamey-ness' and moves on.

Have you tried Rolling Stock?
 
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J C Lawrence
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lamaros wrote:
This has always struck me as a poor way to reason these things. It's a really awkward stretch to say that because someone else just built a certain kind of track halfway across the country a local owner has decided to not let you build on their land. It would require that local owner to have seen the news about the other specific rail construction and then decide "oh well, if only they hadn't done that I would have been fine selling, now though - NEVER!"


Or bribery, judge/governor-buying or other more simple forms of manipulation. It doesn't require anyone being dopey.

Quote:
...if 18xx games could be as much fun without the chrome of track tiles...


Chrome? I suspect you underestimate how much game-value there is in the tile roster and route building aspect of the game. There's almost enough game in the track side alone to be a quite reasonable standalone game by itself.
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Stephe Thomas
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clearclaw wrote:
Few (only three come to mind) 18xx don't limit their track tile roster.
According to my notes, 1761, 1812, 1843, 1846, the One True 1848, 1861, 1867, 18Ardennes, 18BigFour, 18FR-RCE, 18PA, 18US, and 18West have unlimited plain track yellow tiles. 1858 has unlimited yellow tiles. 1817 has unlimited tiles of every kind. Some of those are prototypes; making at least some track unlimited is a reasonable thing to do until the designer has found, through playtesting, where the pinch points ought to be.

1830 was my first 18xx game. Played properly, important track tiles are forever not there when you need them; it forces you to pay attention. Then 1835 came out; it has so much more plain track supplied that we mostly stopped paying attention. I well remember the shock of discovering that Bad People had used up all the straights. If there is a moral, it is that paying attention often helps.
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Pas L
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clearclaw wrote:
Or bribery, judge/governor-buying or other more simple forms of manipulation. It doesn't require anyone being dopey.


You can write a whole novel if you require some thematic justification, but it is a long, awkward, and unnecessary bow to pull.

clearclaw wrote:
Chrome? I suspect you underestimate how much game-value there is in the tile roster and route building aspect of the game. There's almost enough game in the track side alone to be a quite reasonable standalone game by itself.


Did you somehow manage to write this reply without reading the sentence following your quote?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Rolling Stock would seem sufficient evidence of interesting ~18xx-ish games being made without track tiles.

This article may also be useful.
 
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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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lamaros wrote:
It's super gamey, and it doesn't matter. It's a game. It's interesting. I don't see why you need anything else.


This could be a difference on the definition of "gamey," but I don't see how it is when it's built into the strategy of the design.
 
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JR
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lamaros wrote:

This has always struck me as a poor way to reason these things. It's a really awkward stretch to say that because someone else just built a certain kind of track halfway across the country a local owner has decided to not let you build on their land. It would require that local owner to have seen the news about the other specific rail construction and then decide "oh well, if only they hadn't done that I would have been fine selling, now though - NEVER!"

It's super gamey, and it doesn't matter. It's a game. It's interesting. I don't see why you need anything else.

I personally enjoy games that as as simple as possible, and would love it if 18xx games could be as much fun without the chrome of track tiles. But they can't, so the balance of game playing pleasure forgives their 'gamey-ness' and moves on.


I don't suppose you've read the designer notes to Mike Hutton's games. You'd maybe find that these poor explanations are more true to life than you realise.

I should note that Mike isn't the only one who provides delightfully rich back story to his decisions, but his games have stood out to me the most where specific mechanics have direct, interesting ties to real life events.
 
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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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Good point. 19th century railroad history is quite colorful.
 
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Russell InGA
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lamaros wrote:
...
It's super gamey, and it doesn't matter....


The three simple yellow tiles are not the ones that I have seen run out. It's all the other ones that you keep hoping come available. (Hello OO! Hello yellow with station!)

If you and your group don't like the rule, then change it! Just make sure everyone understands that it is your house-rule and that very few other people outside your group are going to even be interested in it.

If you invited me to your 1830 game and I was going to make player six and you said "We house-rule that the simple three yellow are unlimited." I would say "OK, if you really like it that way." If you h-r'ed any more tiles unlimited I would say "You're not playing 1830. Those limits are part of the structure of the game."

*** (Late add) *** You could say that you want bent yellows with stations that are available in some games. Yes, those would be really nice to have! But they're not part of (base / standard) 1830.
 
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J C Lawrence
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rules_heretic wrote:
The three simple yellow tiles are not the ones that I have seen run out. It's all the other ones that you keep hoping come available. (Hello OO! Hello yellow with station!)


The usual binds, outside of the various singletons, are #7, #23, #24, #45 and #46.








Quote:
*** (Late add) *** You could say that you want bent yellows with stations that are available in some games. Yes, those would be really nice to have! But they're not part of (base / standard) 1830.


In particular adding #5 and #6 to 1830 would violently change the strategic space of the game as well as the relative value of the various companies.




BtB figuring out how and why is a pretty good skill-building exercise.
 
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Pas L
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clearclaw wrote:
Rolling Stock would seem sufficient evidence of interesting ~18xx-ish games being made without track tiles.


I like Rolling Stock.

But it doesn't sustain as much interest as most 18xx games for me.
 
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Steve Burt
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Track tile stock is just one of the many, many things you have to think about when playing 1830. It's a vicious game, but a fantastically good one, too. Still by far the best 18xx game IMO.

 
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