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Subject: Do you think that having no real penalty when losing a scenario is bad for gameplay? rss

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Vasilis
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I find that there is no real penalty (except real life game time spent) in losing a scenario, essentially replaying it over and over until you can farm it properly, scooping all the loot and maximizing your party's gains.

Shouldn't there be some kind of penalty in place to give you a motive to push through the scenarios instead of not caring if you actually win or lose?

As a quick 'fix' I'm thinking losing 1 Prosperity each time the party loses a scenario. This will also make raising the difficulty more risky and more intriguing because right now you can always raise the difficulty and farm scenarios until you can win them. (assuming ample free time to play of course but real life limitations shouldn't be a gameplay balancing factor anyway)
Would this break the game in your opinion? Do you find it unnecessary? Thoughts?
 
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kimchi fried rice
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Having to replay the scenario is penalty enough imo, since I'm eager to find out what's going to happen
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Baker Odom
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Bowmangr wrote:
I find that there is no real penalty (except real life game time spent) in losing a scenario, essentially replaying it over and over until you can farm it properly, scooping all the loot and maximizing your party's gains.

Shouldn't there be some kind of penalty in place to give you a motive to push through the scenarios instead of not caring if you actually win or lose?

As a quick 'fix' I'm thinking losing 1 Prosperity each time the party loses a scenario. This will also make raising the difficulty more risky and more intriguing because right now you can always raise the difficulty and farm scenarios until you can win them. (assuming ample free time to play of course but real life limitations shouldn't be a gameplay balancing factor anyway)
Would this break the game in your opinion? Do you find it unnecessary? Thoughts?


Wanting to unlock the next scenario is ample motivation for me. Farming a scenario for me would be tedious and result in almost zero fun.
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Chris Kessel
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I've thought on this quite a bit. While I'd like a little something to happen on a loss, after about 10 games it doesn't feel necessary. It's annoying enough to lose.

It would be cool, thematically, to have some sort of option to flee separate from losing. On a loss, you get some penalty like losing the gold/xp accumulated, but if you flee you get to keep it.

As it stands now, you can take a losing situation (oops, my tank just had to dump 4 cards to avoid dying), take your XP/coins so far and pack it up. Yea, technically there's no game mechanic for it, but you can assume each player used all their cards to do nothing and exhausted and/or got killed. Seems a bit lame, but saves hours of pursuing a bad situation...once you know you can't win, it ends up as meta-game about optimizing looting and XP gain which I don't find nearly as much fun.

Now, if there was some sort of "flee" mechanic, that might be interesting to try and get out with the goods you've got. Maybe end a turn at least X spaces away and out of LOS (or reach a starting hex). I can just see my Tinker looking at the exhausted Brute next to him and going. "Yea, I'm taking my gold and I'm out of here!"





 
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Nathan Stiles
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Bowmangr wrote:
As a quick 'fix' I'm thinking losing 1 Prosperity each time the party loses a scenario. This will also make raising the difficulty more risky and more intriguing because right now you can always raise the difficulty and farm scenarios until you can win them less likely to be done.


I fixed that for you
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Chris Ferejohn
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But...I *do* care if I win. If I just play Pandemic (not Legacy) or Ghost Stories, or whatever I don't get penalized for losing, but I still want to win.

I mean, it's your game, but I haven't felt any motivational problems.
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Brian M
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You lose. Isn't that bad enough?

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Jay Johnson
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house rule: when a scenario is lost, each player participating in the scenario must cut off a finger or a toe
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J D
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StormKnight wrote:
You lose. Isn't that bad enough?



You may lose, but you still get your participation ribbon.

Personally, I prefer the loss of all xp gained during the scenario and coins/treasures. Sort of like a you had to drop everything and run your butt off to escape with your life.

We also play that you return to Gloomhaven and so a new city and road event must take place. Rather than just restarting the scenario repeatedly over n over ad nauseum.

To each their own though. Remember: It is your game. You play how you and your group want to play.
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Mathue Faulkner
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Losing a Prosperity is too harsh. It takes A LOT of work to push that Prosperity, and a lot of things hinge on Prosperity gain. You won't experience everything in the game unless you can get your Prosperity up.
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Bowmangr wrote:
I find that there is no real penalty (except real life game time spent) in losing a scenario, essentially replaying it over and over until you can farm it properly, scooping all the loot and maximizing your party's gains.

Shouldn't there be some kind of penalty in place to give you a motive to push through the scenarios instead of not caring if you actually win or lose?

As a quick 'fix' I'm thinking losing 1 Prosperity each time the party loses a scenario. This will also make raising the difficulty more risky and more intriguing because right now you can always raise the difficulty and farm scenarios until you can win them. (assuming ample free time to play of course but real life limitations shouldn't be a gameplay balancing factor anyway)
Would this break the game in your opinion? Do you find it unnecessary? Thoughts?


Re-doing a 1-3 hour scenario (for a 4 player game) isn't penalty enough? My group is playing 1 scenario a night. If we lose, it means the next time, it's the same scenario. It means we spent about 7 hours total on scenario 1.
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Delith Malistar
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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squegeeboo wrote:


Re-doing a 1-3 hour scenario (for a 4 player game) isn't penalty enough? My group is playing 1 scenario a night. If we lose, it means the next time, it's the same scenario. It means we spent about 7 hours total on scenario 1.


Ya. The time lost is a harsh enough penalty enough for me.
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devastadus bam
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If you play on the variant rules in the rule book where if you die. you die and start new character.

 
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Matt Watkins
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Bowmangr wrote:
real life limitations shouldn't be a gameplay balancing factor anyway


So each scenario should be 14 hours long, minimum party size should be 32, the box should be the size of a boxcar, and the rules written in Inoxian so you have to translate.
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Delith Malistar
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Matt_W wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
real life limitations shouldn't be a gameplay balancing factor anyway


So each scenario should be 14 hours long, minimum party size should be 32, the box should be the size of a boxcar, and the rules written in Inoxian so you have to translate.


I'm totally in. Just need 31 more people!
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Nathaniel Wolf

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That is exactly what we do. we are playing with the permeate death option and with a small house rule and a flee system. The house rule is when exhausted you move at int 99 and can move 1 space towards the entrance. you cannot pick up any coins or make any actions, you are just trying to get out. As long as you get out of the level you keep your gold and xp and can try to do it again with the other survivors of the mission. (Note the 1 move also helps you not become the target of the enemies as often once exhausted. The AI will still target an exhausted player if they are the closest figure to them.)
The best part of this flee system is that it adds a new level of tension at about 2/3s of the way though where we have to ask ourselves do we press on or fall back and try again. we are also using the phone app so on one really knows what is around the next corner or even how many more tiles we will have to lay out.
A last note is that we also play a mission until ALL are exhausted, meaning that if we manage to win the mission with a few cards in hand you can choose to keep playing for loot purposes. If you have the secondary mission to end with x cards in hand then you can reveal it a the scenario completion for credit before the after looting begins.
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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If a character is exhausted, is character model is removed from game by RAW to avoid monsters beat an exhausted character.
 
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Corey Mayo
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Nathanieldwolf wrote:
That is exactly what we do. we are playing with the permeate death option and with a small house rule and a flee system. The house rule is when exhausted you move at int 99 and can move 1 space towards the entrance. you cannot pick up any coins or make any actions, you are just trying to get out. As long as you get out of the level you keep your gold and xp and can try to do it again with the other survivors of the mission. (Note the 1 move also helps you not become the target of the enemies as often once exhausted. The AI will still target an exhausted player if they are the closest figure to them.)
The best part of this flee system is that it adds a new level of tension at about 2/3s of the way though where we have to ask ourselves do we press on or fall back and try again. we are also using the phone app so on one really knows what is around the next corner or even how many more tiles we will have to lay out.


Not bad. I like it.

Nathanieldwolf wrote:
A last note is that we also play a mission until ALL are exhausted, meaning that if we manage to win the mission with a few cards in hand you can choose to keep playing for loot purposes. If you have the secondary mission to end with x cards in hand then you can reveal it a the scenario completion for credit before the after looting begins.

Be aware that there are life goals that your house rule make meaningless.

small SPOILER for life goals:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The goals involve exhaustion.


medium SPOILER for life goals:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
One life goal requires your character to get XX (number included in next spoiler) exhaustions and the other to "observe" a certain number of exhaustions by other members of the party.


large SPOILER for life goals:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The "get 12 exhaustions" goal has become nearly impossible to get because it belongs to my Moon class character and I can't win a damn scenario if he/she doesn't do the heavy lifting for the team. Sure, I could just play random dungeons and intentionally lose, but where's the fun in that?


Xtra large SPOILER for life goals:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
You have no self-control. Stop looking at spoilers.
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Brian M
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Quote:
Personally, I prefer the loss of all xp gained...

Haven't you ever heard the saying "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted?"

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Corey Mayo
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Malistar22 wrote:
Ya. The time lost is a harsh enough penalty enough for me.


Especially when you're my age...
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Mesclor wrote:
We also play that you return to Gloomhaven and so a new city and road event must take place. Rather than just restarting the scenario repeatedly over n over ad nauseum.

What a fantastic idea!
 
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Mike Oehler
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Bowmangr wrote:
This will also make raising the difficulty more risky and more intriguing because right now you can always raise the difficulty and farm scenarios until you can win them. (assuming ample free time to play of course but real life limitations shouldn't be a gameplay balancing factor anyway)
Would this break the game in your opinion? Do you find it unnecessary? Thoughts?


You can farm scenarios anyway by repeating them in casual mode, and get the scenario completion bonus as well. So there's never any upside to losing. With sufficient patience, even with your house rule, you could still grind out extra money and XP by repeating easy missions a bunch of times. The only upside to failure would be keeping a character about to retire off some kind of completion based trigger in the game while they get extra levels.

Moreover, I might argue that the point of raising the difficulty - besides the extra rewards - is pushing to a point where its harder to win. To have more close finishes to missions, inside of screwing around trying to pick up extra treasure instead of trying to keep the last enemy alive while you loot... So adding a punishment for losing basically encourages playing things safe and boring. :(
 
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Morthai wrote:
If a character is exhausted, is character model is removed from game by RAW to avoid monsters beat an exhausted character.

This is not true for the permadeath variant. Instead they get an initiative of 99, but often will have died next to a monster and still be the closest.

I'm considering permadeath for my second campaign and I think Nathaniel Wolf's suggestion is a good tweak to make it a little less harsh.

(OTOH I think "play until everyone is exhausted" is tremendously unbalancing.)
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Ben Martell
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To answer the title question - no, it’s good for gameplay.

The effect of harsh penalties for losing would be extreme care, analysis paralysis, and ultimately I think s significant number of people walking away from the game or best case simply ignoring the rule because it’s tok harsh.

In addition, what you’re trying to fix (grinding) isn’t inherently bad. If people enjoy that then all power to them. In any event I doubt a loss penalty would prevent it - you’re far less likely to ever lose a scenario you’re grinding regularly. I wouldn’t want to grind myself, but a loss penalty would be extremely stressful.
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Nathaniel Wolf

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piman wrote:
Morthai wrote:
If a character is exhausted, is character model is removed from game by RAW to avoid monsters beat an exhausted character.

This is not true for the permadeath variant. Instead they get an initiative of 99, but often will have died next to a monster and still be the closest.

I'm considering permadeath for my second campaign and I think Nathaniel Wolf's suggestion is a good tweak to make it a little less harsh.

(OTOH I think "play until everyone is exhausted" is tremendously unbalancing.)


I may well nix the after-scenario cleanup with any remaining moves, but at starting levels the 3 or 4 coins that the group manage to collect hardly seem to tremendously unbalance the party. perhaps when the coins are worth more or the players start ending the game with 7+ moves left (I don't see that happening) then we will readdress the issue. Currently all this is doing is helping to keep the players focused on the enemy and trying to play their best as they might then have a chance to collect loot after the threat is taken care of.
 
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